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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Fasulye
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 Message 153 of 3959
03 January 2009 at 7:00am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
ESP: Bone, Esperanto ne havas kunmetitan perfekton aŭ pluskvamperfekton.


Jes, tiel estas la situacio. Oni devas akcepti tion, malgraux oni de la aliaj indo-euxropaj lingvoj konas la perfekton kaj la pluskvamperfekton. Vere Ludoviko Zamenhof volis faciligi la gramatikon de sia planlingvo Esperanto. Cxu vi nun jam ricevis vian vortaron Esperanto-DK?

Fasulye-Babylonia

Edited by Fasulye on 03 January 2009 at 7:04am

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 Message 154 of 3959
03 January 2009 at 11:00am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
Por acidente encontrei uma entrevista em português com uma das mais grandes fadistas que eu conhece, Cristina Branco (embora que ela não se considera como fadista, segundo o que ela diz durante a entrevista). Normalmente eschucho sômente música clasica instrumental, mas neste caso eu me podia convencer de fazer uma excepcão. As suas canções lentas são sublimas no senso de Burke (i.e. espantosas) pela sua intensidade, - as canções mais rapidas não têm o mesmo efeito.


POR: Bem obrigada, Iversen!

IT: Non posso scrivere nel portugese, per questo devo scegliere un'altra lingua. Non veramente conoscevo la musica del Fado, la musica traditionale di Portogallo. Ho ascoltato a Cristina Branco e mi piace questa musica. Cristina Branco a una bella voce e canta con molta emozione. Anche questo tipo di musica e combinato con la chitarra, il mio instrumento preferito. Era interessante per me fare consocenza con questa musica.

Fasulye-Babylonia

Edited by Fasulye on 03 January 2009 at 11:04am

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Iversen
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 Message 155 of 3959
04 January 2009 at 7:53pm | IP Logged 
I have spent most of this weekend on activites that didn't really further my linguistic endeavours. These activities included scanning a heap of postcards, updating the homepage of my travelclub, listening to (classical instrumental) music and taking a long walk Saturday (without listening to language lessons from a walkman or MP3 player, - shame on me!).

SP: Almeno he eschucado las programas del Instituto Cervantes durante mis acitividades al computador. El sitio "http://www.cervantestv.es" es una vera mina de audio español, pero una mina que no he escuchado antes. Por esta razón no sé cuando se cambia la programación, y además no puedo ver a qué hora se emite qué programa. Hay una emisíon continua con una docena de partes, y todo esto dura unas horas - no sé si la emisión recomienza despues de finir, y no sé si corre todo el tiempo. Además hay una docena de secciones con programas individuales. Peró no hay un barro o botónes para acelarer o saltar. Otro problema serio es que los temas de los programas son hiperculturales, es decir se habla de literatura todo el tiempo (hay muchisimas entrevistas con autores), y se no se hable de la literatura se habla de congresos y festivales donde la literatura está en el centro de la atención). Quando he visto que havia un documental sobre "Cartagena. La ciudad y las máscaras" creía que fuera una emisión sobre loa ciudad de Cartagena de las Indias en Colombia que visité hace dos anos, pero no - en el anomenado documental con este titulo hay solamento musica, ningún comentar. Hay mas de trinta boletinos de las "Culturas" en Madrid (en mayo 2008), peró solamente se habla, se habla, se habla y se persevera en hablar. Para quien ama la literatura los programas de Cervantes debe ser el Paraíso, peró después de una hora yo tuve que fugir para no endormecirme. He escuchado un elogio del español de Latinamerica y hay una buena representación de voces latinamericanas, apesar del hecho que el Instituto fue creado por el Gobierno Español en 1990 y que está un dependiente del Ministerio de Asuntos Exteriores, no de los Ministerios de la Cultura o del Enseñamiento.

LAT: Vidi emissionem stationis televisivi "World" (Mundus) anglice lingua de vita gladiatorum. Multa iam legi de gladiatoribus, sed non sciebam quod tertia pars gladiatoris cives ingenui essent, aut amphiteatrum Pompeiorum antiquissimum omnium esse, aut signum 'pollex erectus' non signum gratiae gladiatori victi esset sed signum phallicum pulchritudinem mulieris agnoscens. Et non sciebat quod apud Ephesum tumba inveniatus sit gladiatoris mariti, atque in Pompeio unus gladiator villam habuisse.

----

I have listened to the Spanish internet TV of the Cervantes institute (an organisation under the Spanish Ministry of Foreign Affairs). There is a lot of audio materials there (and hurray for that), but it is deliberately lopsided towards literature which isn't ideal for someone like me. Besides it would be nice to know when the running program list restarts and when its is changed. I acknowledge the effort - and also that it covers Latinamerica fairly well - but I soon found it boring.

Among the TV programs of Sunday I have singled out the one on 'Discovery World' about the gladiators of ancient Rome because it gave me an excuse for writing something in Latin. After a lot of reading I knew that the general idea the life and role of gladiators didn't quite fit the reality, but nevertheless there were a few new informations in this program, such as that on third of all gladiators were free men and not slaves, that the amphitheater of Pompei allegedly should be the oldest in Ancient Rome, that a tomb has been found near Ephesos in Asia Minor for a married gladiator, and that the sign 'thumbs up' didn't mean "spare the life of this valiant loser", but "What a pretty girl". In the same situation modern Italians just whistle.


Edited by Iversen on 05 January 2009 at 9:31am

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Fasulye
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 Message 156 of 3959
05 January 2009 at 12:08am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
Otro problema serio es que los temas de los programas son hiperculturales, es decir se habla de literatura todo el tiempo (hay muchisimas entrevistas con autores), y se no se hable de la literatura se habla de congresos y festivales donde la literatura está en el centro de la atención).


SPA: El Instituo Cervantes es una cosa similar como "Goethe Institut" para el alemán o "Institut Français" para el francés. Tampoco a mi me interesa la literatura, por eso este site está no tanto de mi interés.

ENG: With interest I have read in this forum that Reinicke has adapted the rules for the TAC 2009. First he thought that participating in the TAC was a kind of student affair, but now he has recognized that working people (like me) or people with families and children (unlike me) who have less time available also participate in this competiton. Therefore he has abandoned the rule that someone has to study at least TWO languages. This suits me perfectly, because I couldn't focus that intensively on a second language. So this is will be a progress for my TAC participation.

And with a big smile on my face I have read all those discussions in this forum around whether people are able to learn languages effectively at an advanced age. Prof. Arguelles has made a clear statement on that topic and my personal experience is that learning is a pure matter of training. I am so freaky about learning that I couldn't even live without that. I would become very, very unhappy, if I had nothing more to learn. So the whole secret behind people learning languages or something else sucessfully at an advanced age is "Stick to it, keep it going." When I reach pension age I would like to go to university again just to study there for my own pleasure. At my pension age I will face extreme poverty, so my personal challenge will be to find ways to finance all my learning activities.

Fasulye-Babylonia


Edited by Fasulye on 05 January 2009 at 9:04am

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Iversen
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 Message 157 of 3959
06 January 2009 at 6:18pm | IP Logged 
IT: Non si può lasciare il suo log tranquillo due giorni senza che si ficca tra le altri diarii - il che mostra quanta attività la sfida del TAC a prodotto in questa parte del foro! Oggi non intento scrivere molto, sono stanco. Ho fatto le cose normale, letto il mio TY Afrikaans nel autobus, ho copiato un poco di Russo dal sitio GLOSS, ho letto la maggior parte di una grammatica esperantista sulla rete - imparando per exempio che l'infinitivo generalmente non si usa dopo preposizioni - ma l'attività più strana è stato di lire qualche pagini di una vecchia Antologia della letteratura Friuliano con commenti in Italiano. Devo admettere che non ho capito molto. Dall'altro lato me ho sentito che quasi fossi a un solo passo di capire anche questa lingua sul piano passivo (ma come ho già detto: non ho nessuna intenzione di impararla):

Jé passade l'ombre scure / il soreli si è jevát /
ma nissun l'à savût nuie / del mio ben à c'al lât.

(credo che questo significa "Ho passato per le ombre scure / il sole si è levato /
ma nessuno ha saputo niente / dal mio bene (?) ... ). Non ho nessun dizionaro del retoromanico e non so affatto che cosa significa "à c'al lâr")

È molto differente dal Surselvico (Engadinisch' auf Deutsch):

Jou sunt igl vos suaintervagnánt alla lutga da dustánza pigl Rumántsch da la Sutselva (parte della prefazione di un piccolo libro con quattro fiabi di H.C.Andersen):
Io sono il vostro campione (sorvegliante ?) nella lotta per il Retoromano di Surselva.

Como ho detto non intento imperare né la lingua Friulano, né quella Surselvano (?), ma è interessante vedere anche alcuni delle lingue meno communi di Europa. Se solamente avessi un dizionario Friulano e un altro della Surselva sarebbe più facile leggere questi libri.

----

I'm not going to write a lot tonight, so I just mention that I have read some pages of my TY Afrikaans in the bus back home from work, I have read a bit of grammar for Esperanto (and I'm still in shock after having read that infinitives can't be used just after a preposition) and copied some pages in Russian. But the main activity this evening has been reading the first part of an antology of Friulian literature (with Italian commentary). I found it quite different from the Surselvan (Engadinisch in German) which is spoken in the countryside of Graubünden in Switzerland - but not in the towns. Friulian is the Romance dialect spoken in the extreme North East of Italy.

I didn't quite understand these texts in Friulian, but with a dictionary it would have fairly easy.

COMMENTO: Quando ho rivisto questo post oggi alla mattina, ho ricevuto una scossa - che sacco di errori! Sono stato più stanco di quanto credessi...

Edited by Iversen on 07 January 2009 at 8:09am

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Fasulye
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 Message 158 of 3959
06 January 2009 at 11:49pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
IT: Non si può lasciare il suo log tranquillo duo giorni senze che si ficca tra le altri diarii - il che mostra quanta attività la sfida del TAC a prodotto in questa parte del foro! Oggi non intento scrivere molto. Ho fatto le cose normale, letto il mio TY Afrikaans nel autobusso, ho copiato un poco di Russo dal sitio GLOSS, ho letto la maggior parte di una grammatica esperantista sulla rete - imparando per exempio che l'infinitivo generalmente non si usa dopo preposizioni - ma l'attività più strano è stato di lire qualche pagini di una vecchia Antologia della letteratura Friuliano con commenteri in Italiano. Devo admettere che non ho capito molto. Dall'altro lato me sento a un passo di capire anche questa lingua sul piano passivo (ma come hodetto: non ho l'intenzione di impararlo):


IT: E una buona cosa che tanta gente participa al TAC 2009! Veramente i dialetti Italiani sono molti importanti nel paese. All'universita ho appreso che l'unificazione dell'Italia e stato nel 1871, primo di questo una lingua comune Italiana non esisteva - soltanto dei dialetti dappertutto. Ma io non mi occupo dei dialetti di un paese troppo lontano per me. Italia e veramente lontano della Germania e della mia regione NRW, sono gia felice si capisco bastante bene il dialetto limburgese della mia frontiera olandesa.

Fasulye-Babylonia



Edited by Fasulye on 07 January 2009 at 12:26pm

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Iversen
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 Message 159 of 3959
08 January 2009 at 4:35pm | IP Logged 
Some remarks about the art and risk of translating in Jar-Ptitsa's log made me think about the role of translation in language learning.

While you are learning a language it is quite normal that your formulations are coloured by not only your native language, but also your advanced second languages. This doesn't necessarily mean that you are translating everything in your head, but just that you tend to use wellknown patterns when you aren't sure about how to say something in the foreign language. And that isn't really a bad strategy - as long as you remember that you are experimenting, and that your guesses should be checked as soon as possible. With time and exposure to the foreign language you will eventually absorb its structures and its 'melody', but until then you can commit some atrocious errors, as this thread has shown.

This colouring may occur even if you aren't properly speaking translating. In fact expressing yourself in a foreign language by deciding what to say in your own language and then translating it into your much weaker target language seems to be utterly idiotic. Not only will it take time to do it (and you haven't got time to spare when you are trying to speak a weak language), but you subject yourself to some unnecessary constraints from your mothertongue that may be utterly irrelevant for the target language. I know that, but the world isn't that simple: the problem is that you may want to express something in the target language, but you can't just remember how to do it. In that situation it is tempting to formulate your ideas in your own language first and then by a combination of guesses and information collection try to find some kind of translation, which may be totally wrong and unidiomatic. But you learn more from trying this tactic than you would from just limiting yourself to expressing those thoughts that you know how to express. Therefore I promise that I will proudly continue to make grave and shocking blunders here. The next victim will be Afrikaans.

AFR: My tweetalige skoolwoordeboek ist gekomen voor Nuwejaar, en ik het reeds enige woordelys geskryf. Gelukkig vir me is dat my woordeboekjie is heeltmaal goed, ten spyte van sy laag prys. Bowendien lees ik in de bus van my werk iedere dag 'n stuk van 't Teach Yourself Af, en ik lees ook stukies van een reistydskrif "Weg!" die ik het gekocht in Namibie voor drie jaaren. Maar ik kan nog niet regtig in Afrikaans denken nie, ik denk in slegte Nederlands met Afrikaanse (en Nederlandse) woorden en sommige idiomatis elemente van uit my lektuur. En daarna kontroleer ik alles met my woordeboek en Google, - ofskoon dit een bietjie problematies is omdaat 't soekfuntie niet werk met Afrikaans. Ik het derhaalwe een lis uitgedinkt: ik vra wat ik vra wil en voeg by "nie". Die Nederlanders sê nie "nie" nie.   

-----

My Afrikaans dictionary arrived just before New Year, and I'm quite satisfied with it. I have of course already produced some wordlists, and besides I read some pages every day in my TY Afrikaans in the bus back home from my job, and I also read passages in a travel magazine which I bought in Namibia three years ago (where I incidentally spoke German most of the time, rather than English). Of course I haven't learnt to think properly in the language yet, so my thinking is based on a substratum oof Dutch interspersed with Afrikaans words and idioms as far as I know them. Give time and the Dutch elements will disappear and leave something more like true Afrikaans. When I write this I first write down what I want to say in this hybrid language, and then I go through the text again, armed with my dictionary and Google - though the use of Google is a bit complicated because the search mechanism doesn't recognize Afrikaans. Instead I write the words and constructions that I want to check and add the word "nie" ("not", which typically is used twice in a negative sentence in Afrikaans). The point is that the Dutch don't use this word no, and in that way I can avoid polluting my search results with Dutch items.   


Edited by Iversen on 08 January 2009 at 6:08pm

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Fasulye
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 Message 160 of 3959
09 January 2009 at 1:00am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
Some remarks about the art and risk of translating in Jar-Ptitsa's log made me think about the role of translation in language learning.

While you are learning a language it is quite normal that your formulations are coloured by not only your native language, but also your advanced second languages. This doesn't necessarily mean that you are translating everything in your head, but just that you tend to use wellknown patterns when you aren't sure about how to say something in the foreign language. And that isn't really a bad strategy - as long as you remember that you are experimenting, and that your guesses should be checked as soon as possible. With time and exposure to the foreign language you will eventually absorb its structures and its 'melody', but until then you can commit some atrocious errors, as this thread has shown.

This colouring may occur even if you aren't properly speaking translating. In fact expressing yourself in a foreign language by deciding what to say in your own language and then translating it into your much weaker target language seems to be utterly idiotic. Not only will it take time to do it (and you haven't got time to spare when you are trying to speak a weak language), but you subject yourself to some unnecessary constraints from your mothertongue that may be utterly irrelevant for the target language. I know that, but the world isn't that simple: the problem is that you may want to express something in the target language, but you can't just remember how to do it. In that situation it is tempting to formulate your ideas in your own language first and then by a combination of guesses and information collection try to find some kind of translation, which may be totally wrong and unidiomatic. But you learn more from trying this tactic than you would from just limiting yourself to expressing those thoughts that you know how to express. Therefore I promise that I will proudly continue to make grave and shocking blunders here. The next victim will be Afrikaans.


NL: Als ik hier mijn posts in jouw log zet, dan kun je er wel vanuit gaan, dat alles wat ik hier schrijf in de vreemde taal gedacht en geformuleerd is. Dat is een grondprincipe van mijn talentalent, dat ik altijd in de vreemde taal zelf denk. Eerst schakel ik mijn gedachtens om naar een taal zoals Italiaans en dan denk ik in het Italiaans erover na "Wat wil ik nou precies zeggen?" en als me dan een enkel woord ontbreekt, dan pak ik mijn woordenboek en zoek dat op. Ik heb ook in mijn studiegroup Turks heel duidelijk tegen mijn studiepartner Turks gezegt: "Dialogen in het Duits vertalen, daar gaan wij niet aan beginnen". Ik let er altijd zeer streng op, om de ouderlijke taal buiten te houden, want anders kan ik niet een vreemde taal assimileren. Als een leermethode zo ongeschikt is dat ik een vreemde taal niet kan assimileren, dan is het leren van die taal voor mij waardeloos. Hoezo kan ik zo slecht Latijn? Omdat ik nooit in mijn leven die taal geassimileerd heb! Zodoende heb ik nooit in het Latijn leren denken. En juist daarom ging het fout in die Latijnse thread. Wat voor mij werkelijk nog moeilijk is, is om in het Turks te denken. Zodra ik op dat level kom dat mij dat goed lukt, dan is het spel gewonnen. Momenteel ontbreken mij nog teveel woorden, als ik zinnen in het Turks vrij wil formuleren. Zodoende wordt het Turkse denken dan te vaak onderbroken.

GE: Gestern habe ich mich mit dem neuen VHS-Progamm für das 1. Semester 2009 beschäftigt. Für den Bereich Astronomie werden zwei Vorträge angeboten, einer über Weiße Zwerge und einer über die Experimente am CERN in der Schweiz mit dem LHC = Large Hadron Collider. Ich werde zu beiden Vorträgen nicht hingehen, habe ich entschieden. Über den Large Hadron Collider habe ich schon einen Vortrag im Astronomieclub angehört, ich muss auch nicht so im Detail wissen, wie die superkleinen Teilchen alle genau heißen. Ein für mich sehr interessanter Vortrag wird angeboten und da werde ich auf jeden Fall hingehen: Grönland aus naturwisschaftlicher Sicht. Endlich mal wieder ein Vortrag über Skandinavien, in meinem Fernsehsender NDR kommen auch keine Dokus mehr, oder ich verpasse sie.

NL: Dat is vrij normaal dat je nu intereferenties hebt tussen het Nederlands en het Afrikaans. Als jouw niveau van het Afrikaans vordert, dan zal het minder worden. Tussen de drie talen Italiaans - Spaans - Esperanto heb ikzelf ook wel eens interferenties. Het kan mij dus gebeuren dat ik in het Spaans een Italiaans woord gebruik of dat als wij in onze Esperantogroep Esperanto spreken zich daar ineens een Italiaans woord tussenwurmt. Het kost mij overigens heel grote inspanning om mijn gedachtens rechtstreeks b.v. van het Esperanto naar het Italiaans omteschakelen. Zodoende probeer ik dat te vermijden. Van het Frans naar het Italiaans omschakelen gaat dan wel weer makkelijk.

Fasulye-Babylonia



Edited by Fasulye on 09 January 2009 at 2:34am



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