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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 3145 of 3959
21 December 2012 at 1:36am | IP Logged 
I have been busy with the transferral of travelogues from the old homepage of my travel club to the new one the whole evening, so there hasn't been time to study - but I have seen a few programs in relevant languages.

SW: Till exempel såg jag ett program om ett par som skulle leva en vecka i en imitation av en lägenhet från 40-talet, och de fikk desutom äta mat från 40-talet. Detta visade sig att inkludera en grävling, eftersom folk i en tid av köttransonering inte var särskild kräsna. Och det var trevligt att ha familj på landsbygden, som de skulle kunna snylta på, eh.. besöka fordi de tyckade jättebra om dem. Mannen var desutom en ganska outhärdlig typ som besvärade sig över allt ock alla, så jag var glad att han inte gillade maten.
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mahasiswa
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 Message 3146 of 3959
21 December 2012 at 2:28am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
The big problem is the fanciful mistranslations of ordinary text. The Italians have the
expression "traduttore - tradittore", and in Danish we have the notion "undersættelse" ('translation' is
"oversættelse" in Danish).


I recall George Steiner in his After Babel quoting the very apt pun made by Matthias Claudius: "Wer
übersetzt, der untersetzt."

And in regards to your Malay, I too have taken time off from my Malay study to better my Arabic and get
a base in Hindi before going back to Malay to secure my abilities in the language. I remember my
Malaysian girlfriend always telling me that my accent was racist-sounding! My favourite resources have
been the relatively richly-funded contemporary cinematic culture of Malaysia as well as private
messaging native-speakers (on other sites) who are only bilingual (with English, Indonesian, Chinese or
Arabic) or sometimes even trilingual. They don't fear writing in a Malay that always differs a little from
what my textbook says, such as the classic: sedikit-sedikit, lama lama menjadi bukit.

Very impressive accomplisments Iversen!
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Iversen
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 Message 3147 of 3959
21 December 2012 at 11:51am | IP Logged 
mahasiswa wrote:
I remember my Malaysian girlfriend always telling me that my accent was racist-sounding!


If there is an intonation or certain sounds which are perceived as racist by native speakers then the textbooks ought to warn people against them. However I would not have expected that in a big standard language, but rather in a minority language or a dialect, where the local speakers are sick and tired of being ridiculed for their way of speaking.

mahasiswa wrote:
My favourite resources have
been the relatively richly-funded contemporary cinematic culture of Malaysia as well as private messaging native-speakers (on other sites) who are only bilingual (with English, Indonesian, Chinese or


For me one of the problems with Malaysian turned out to be the lack of literature about science, history and other 'highbrow' themes. I visited Sarawak and mainland Malaysia e couple of years ago, and I went into a couple of small bookstores in Kuching to find something in Bahasa Malaysia to read/study. But apart from a good midsize dictionary I could only find one book about food and another small one about tribes. Then I tried again in the enormous bookstore in the shopping center below the Petronas towers, and there the selection was also fairly dismal.I know from the Sains centre in the same complex and from Wikipedia that it is possible to write about science in Bahasa Malaysia, but everything for sale about such topics turned out to be in English.

When I visited Indonesia about five-six years ago I didn't care about learning the local language(s), so I simply don't know whether the situation is different there - I didn't even enter a bookstore during my two weeks in the country. In the Philippines I did, and I found my Indonesian dictionary there plus my best Latin-English one and a few other language related books - but again: almost all the books about my favorite scientific etc. subjects in the book stores in Cebu city and Manila were written in English.

Edited by Iversen on 21 December 2012 at 12:17pm

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Iversen
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 Message 3148 of 3959
27 December 2012 at 1:35am | IP Logged 
I have returned from my internet challenged Christmas holiday. I won't go into details with all the TV programs I have watched, and I will just mention that I carried bilingual texts and small language books/dictionaries in a number of languages, but most of it was never used.

Among the exceptions I'll mention the 'маршрут' (marching route) to the Moscow Zoopark which I bought during my last visit ther, and which I have studied long ago - so this time I could just read it as pleasure reading in the train. On the way back I read parts of the Kauderwelsch book about Thai, but I didn't really get the idea behind the writing system.

During my stay I had to be sociable and couldn't study as much as I ought to, but nevertheless I did get something done, not least in Greek. The reason was that I almost by accident put "Vocabulary of Modern Spoken Greek" by Donald L. Sawanson into my luggage. It is extremely old (from 1959) and I don't really remember where I got it, but it is actually a very interesting supplement to my other Greek dictionaries. It is fiercely focused on the actually spoken and written Dhimotiki, although some Katherevouse forms are listed. Besides it is more concerned with the level of information than with the number of words, so there are only around 3750 English-Greek entries (with example sentences and idioms) and around 4550 Greek-English entries (with a few idioms and a bit of morphology). And what did I then do with this book? Well, I looked at the Greek part and noticed that I already know at least half of the words passively (and could guess many of the those in the other half) wo I decided to start from alpha and basically go through all the words. I didn't quite reach omega, but I did reach αταξία (disorder, mischief) - all in all around 600 words.

GR: Πέρασα αρκετές ώρες εδώ τα Χριστούγεννα 2012 για να μελετήσει ελληνική λέξη με το α πρόθεμα 'α'. Είχα το λεξικό του Swanson σε αποσκευές μου, και αυτό είναι ιδιαίτερο για να φιλοξενήσει αρκετά λόγια, αλλά με προσοχή τη θεραπεία τους. Όταν ανακάλυψα ότι ήξερα τουλάχιστον τα μισά από τις ελληνικές λέξεις κεφάλι, ήθελα να να εξαλειφθούν τα κενά, και στη συνέχεια έκανα απλά ένα γλωσσάρι με σχεδόν όλων των λέξεων σε 'α' - περίπου 600 λέξεις από το 'α' ("imperative meaning 'go' .. "ἄ στὸ χαλὁ" .. Darn it) μέχρι "αταξία" (disorder, mischief). Όπως μπορείτε να δείτε, αυτό το λεξιλόγιο είναι τόσο παλιά που χρησιμοποιείται τις τρεις τόνους και δύο πνεύματα πριν από τη μεταρρύθμιση ορθογραφίας 1982, τα οποία άφησα μόνο ένα τόνο (και την προφορά). Αλλά αυτό δεν με ενοχλεί.


Edited by Iversen on 27 December 2012 at 10:05am

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Iversen
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 Message 3149 of 3959
28 December 2012 at 11:22pm | IP Logged 
NFRI: Aw en latj ailönj made önj e gränsslüütj Wiidou lait e üülje krouf önjt niimenslönj.
PLATT: Op en lütte Insel in de Wiedau, de dor as Grenz löppt, liggt de ole Kroog meern in’t Nix.
GER: Auf einer kleinen Insel inmitten des Grenzflüsschens Wiedau liegt der alte Krug mitten im Niemandsland
SJY: Å æ’n lille ø i æ grænseå Vidå liche æ gammel kro midt i æ ingenmandsland.
DA: På en lille ø i grænseåen Vidå ligger den gamle kro midt i ingenmandsland.

PLATT: ik höff nülich mien Bidrag toe die Draht "Identify this language" mit Noordfreesch geven, un mien Tekstbispeel wöör uut Wiidau Kroog sien website nohmen.
GER: Diese Webseite ist in fünf Sprachen geschrieben und beinhaltet eine Serie von kurze Podcasts in den fünf Sprachen, die in Schleswig in den alten Tagen gesprochen wurden: Dänisch, 'Synnejysk', Hochdeutsch, Niederdeutsch und Friesisch. Wenn irgend jemand heutzutage die Grenzregion zwischen Dänemark und Deutschland besucht, wird es klar, daß Dänisch und Deutsch dominieren, und daß Plattdeutsch und Südjütisch (oder 'Plattdänisch') meistens nur zwischen ältere Leute auf dem Lande gesprochen werden.
DA: Her får man imidlertid chancen for at høre alle fem sprog på lige fod - selv frisisk, der ellers er næsten uddødt i Tyskland. Jeg taler ikke selv Synnejysk, men kender folk der taler det som deres dagligsprog, og det er heldigvis muligt at holde sig ajour med sproget på
SJY: Æ Synnejysk Forenings [http://synnejysk.dk/]hjemmesie, vår du osse ka læjs æ blaj. Å sørme da, a har funne æn sang tedels å frisisk (p.8):

FRI: Biikesang (på nordfrisisk og dansk):

Kam jurt, we wan en iilj heer mååge.
Lätj üs da troole ferdriwe!
Da troole foon iirtids we wan ferjååge.
We wan da troole ferdriwe,
Üt önj e nåcht da troole we siinje.
En biiken sü häl as e däi wan we tiinje.
Kaame ja änkeltwis unti bai bunke,
We wan da troole ferdriwe!
Wi driwe jam wäch än üt önj e junke.
Frasch wan we weese än bliwe!

I have recently quoted a passage in Northern Frisian in the "Identify this language" thread. I got it from a homepage that apparently belongs to an inn right between Denmark and Germany, in an area that earlier could boast five indegenous languages: High and Low German, 'Rigsdansk', 'Synnejysk' and North Frisian. But where Western Frisian apparently survives and even thrives in the Northern part of the Netherlands, Frisian has all but disappeared from Germany. The homepage of "Vidå kro" is quite special because it is written in all these five languages, and it has a number of short podcasts where they are mixed - as if ten regular guests came and discussed among themselves in these five languages. You could see it as an idealized picture of five 'tribes' living among each others and speaking their own languages, but being understood by everybody else in the region. The reality is and was less rosy: High German and Standard Danish have taken over with a vengeance.

However there is one staunch defender of the Southern Jutish dialect to the North of the border: the "Synnejysk Forening". I have quoted from their magazine before, and even though the spelling can be somewhat confusing I have heard enough Synnejysk to read it with a realistic pronunciation. This time I fond a song whose first half is in Frisian (see above), but it is not crystal clear what the meaning is. In spite of this I have no plans about studying any kind of Frisian - it is enough to know that it is there and sometimes makes a guest appearence in my world.


Edited by Iversen on 28 December 2012 at 11:56pm

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Iversen
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Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
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 Message 3150 of 3959
29 December 2012 at 5:22pm | IP Logged 
IR: Chaith mé dhá uair an chloig alt ó Vicipéid ar Laidin agus cuid de alt ar ochslaíoch. Bhí é agam déanta na fírinne eagrán dátheangach leis an nGaeilge agus Ollainnis, ach tá tú ag foghlaim go leor ag déanamh an aistriúcháin féin - mar shampla, aimsíonn tú a lán de earráid aistriúcháin agus seachnaítear fiú roinnt earráidí tromchúiseach. Ach ní raibh mé ag foghlaim rud nua faoi Laidin.

FR: J'ai aussi regardé un programme de télévision en français sur Cathérine II la Grande de Russie, une princesse allemande d'un court minuscule qui a été choisie comme épouse du tsar Pierre III, qui s'est avéré comme un un idiot total. Cathérine s'est trouvé en danger mortel et elle s'a débarassé de lui, ce qui menait a une règne longue et fructueuse dans une luxe incroyable. Et j'ai vraiment ressenti une grande envie de me rendre à Sct. Pétersbourg pour revoir l'Ermitage et pour voir du moins deux autres châteaux aux environs pour la première fois.

I have spent two hours on a translation of the Irish Wikipedia's articles about Latin and the ablative case, using a bilingual version based on Irish and Dutch. Having a bilingual versiion and making a translation may sound somewhat repetatitve, but it is actually an excellent exercise - you discover a lot of errors in the translation (on top of the words which Google couldn't translate and left as they were), and you avoid making some of those you otherwise would have made yourself.

Besides I have watched a TV program in French about Catherine the Great of Russia ... and now I really feel the urge to go there to revisit the Hermitage and see a couple of other magnificent castles near St. Petersburg for the first time.

Edited by Iversen on 29 December 2012 at 5:26pm

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tarvos
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 Message 3151 of 3959
02 January 2013 at 1:05pm | IP Logged 
Hej Iversen,

Någon har skickat den här länken till forumet, men jag vet inte om du redan sett det. Det
handlar om Global Voices här, och de översätter nyheter från alla länden till en massa av
språk, bland annat språk som du också studerar. Du bekommer i många tillfälle ett
tvåspråkigt artikel (eller tre, fyra beroende på hur mycket folk har bestämt att
översätta). Det kan du använda för dina egna målsättningar. Ibland annat finns det
rumänska, ryska, grekiska, indonesiska, holländska och så vidare. Men de har inga
översättare för iriska.

Global Voices (det är den engelska
hemsidan, klicka på språknamnen uppe för att växla språk).
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Iversen
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 Message 3152 of 3959
15 January 2013 at 9:45pm | IP Logged 
I have been absent for a couple of weeks due to a trip to Cuba and this is my first hour at my computer after my return so I have only had time for a short peek at Global Voices. But it sounds like an interesting concept, and if the ranslations are sufficiently literal it could be a good source for the kind of bilingual texts I have been recommending for ages.

SP: Llegué al aeropuerto internacional de La Habana/Havana el 30 de diciembre y saliò 13 de enero, y durante este tiempo he visitado Havana, Viñales, Trinidad, Cienfuegos y Santa Clara. Ayer una nueva ley entró en vigor que permite a los cubanos a salir libremente del país. El problema es sólo que tienen que pagar su vuelo y otros costos con moneda convertible, y pocos cubanos tienen esta oportunidad. Yo, sin embargo, al azar pasé la Embajada española en el centro de La Habana ayer, y fuera del consulado la calle estaba lleno de solicitantes de visado español. En el hecho Cuba tiene su propia moneda covertible, el CUC, y los turistas paguen en principio todo en CUC a los mismos precios que los cubanos paguen en pesos nacionales (CUP). Peró hay cosas que no se pueden comprar con CUC, y hay ciertas cosas productos subvencionados que los cubanes pueden comprar con CUP y cupones de racionamiento - peró no hay duda que esto no basta para una vida normal. Los turistas estan priviligiados porque tienen CUC.

Yo pasó mis noches en casas particulares, es decir casas privados donde se alquila 1,2 o 3 cuartas a turistas (= bed and breakfast). En este manera las familias de acogida pueden obtener CUC, peró tienen que pagar altos impuestos para esto - y tambien para el derecho de servir comida a los huéspedes. Si tiene que pagar se hay o no hay turistas, y si se sierve o no sierve comidas.. y por esto todos las casas sierven comidas si los clientes lo desean. Yo personalmente cenaba cada dia en las casas porque se puede comer comidas excelentes allí - aunque hay ciertas ingredientes que están reservados para los hoteles y para exportación, como por ejemplo carne de res. Peró los ultimos años la administración estatal se ha desinvolvido en una dirección meno celoso, aunque sin bajar los impuestos.

Para alguién que quiere hablar español esta forma de turismo es ideal porque hay un contacto muy extensiva con sus anfitriones, peró sin estar en una situación formal de curso.

Evidentemente mi viaje fue casí monolingual - he hablado alemán y francés a otros huéspedes y danés al representante local de mi agencia de viaje - pero solo español a los cubanos, sin excepción - incluido quando tuve que explicar la convención de Schengen a une adama en Havana. Peró trajo también diccionarios griegos y españoles y aprovechó la ocasión para sacar algunas menudos vocabularios (unos miles palabras en cada una de ellas), y también varios textos bilingües y et libro de Kauderwelsch de irlandés. La diversidad viva!

I have just returned after some 15 days in Cuba, where I stayed at the local version of B&B's - casas particulares (which literally means private houses, not particular houses). The hosts can get convertible currency in this way (which in Cuba exists as CUC's, which is used by tourists, while the locals use local peso which however can't be used for buying luxury or foreign items), but they are taxed heavily by the state. For language aficionados this is however the ideal way to travel because you get lots of opportunities to use your Spanish.

As usual I only brought handluggage (full of quick drying clothing items and other allowed items). In this I had a tiny Danish-Spanish-Danish dictionary (2 x 12000 words) and Swanson's Greek-English-Greek one which is slightly bigger, but with fewer headwords. I spent some time doing wordlists, and a couple of thousand words in each language brought me almost through the Greek alphabet, but only to E in the Spanish list. Besides I brought my well used Kauderwelsch Irish - muttering strange growly sounds while sitting at solitary benches in parks - and a number of bilingual texts, and I spoke Danish to the local representative for my travel agency and French and German to other casa guests - but only Spanish to Cubans so the trip still formally qualifies as a monolingual trip.


Edited by Iversen on 17 January 2013 at 11:01am



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