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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 3369 of 3959
09 September 2013 at 9:57am | IP Logged 
Contrairement à Vermillon je n'ai pas vécu en permanence en France (seulement été en vacance là) et le français n'est pas ma language maternelle, donc il faut que je contrôle ce que je dit dans les dictionaries et grammaires. Et ces sources sont largement basées sur la langue écrite. En effet on pourrait dire la même chose de moi-même et de mon langage. Cela pourrait expliquer la préférence de Vermillon pour l'indicatif (surtout au singulier), tandis que je suis sous l'influence d'une forte prédilection pour les tournures rares et précieuses.

"Childhood" in Danish actually is "barndom" with an ordinary 'a'. Btw: The 'ø' in the plural ("børn" = 'children') actually represents a phonetical change caused by the ending -u in Old Norse (going back to Proto-Norse), and it still remains intact centuries after that ending disappeared. Just as the streets in old medieval towns still run where they were laid out a thousand years ago, even though none of the individual houses have survived. The "-dom" in "barndom" and "-dømme" in "kongedømme" must also be the result of old long forgotten processes whose effects lived longer than the processes themselves.

PS: for a dissenting voice concerning the socalled u-Umlaut, see this paper from the Linguistic conference in Reykjavík in May 2013, where the blame for the 'ö¨ion Modern Icelandic and 'ø' in Danish is squarely put on factors surviving from Proto-Nordic.

Edited by Iversen on 09 September 2013 at 1:21pm

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Iversen
Super Polyglot
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Denmark
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Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
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 Message 3370 of 3959
10 September 2013 at 12:31am | IP Logged 
CA: Jo vaig visitar Mallorca per la primera vegada en l'any 2011, i quan he dit al receptionista que la llengua catalana no'm era totalment estranyera va aparèixer un senyor mess vell que em parlava en el seu dialecte - i jo gairebé no l'ha entendit! Pero desprez d'alguns minuts penibles jo me podia adaptar a la seva espècie de català. Més tard he vist en Palma alguns cartells i senys en catalan, on es podia veure les diferències dintre la català mallorquina i la català dels gens barcelonins que me pare massa coneguda desprez de diversos vitajes i molts estudis.

Hi ha rondaies breves i rondaies llargues, i les darreres ten tots el trets caracteristiques de les contes de altres països - com per eixemple el nombre 3 i també la fascinació amb reialesa i velles jaietes i aucells cantants. En "La Bella Ventura" hi ha tres Germanes, cadascuna de les quals dóna a una vella captaire un bon tros de pa. I la vella diu a cadascuna de les Germanes que exactament a la mitjanit havia de cridar "La Bella aventura - quina serà ma bella aventura?" de la seva finestra, i llavors vagui escoltar una veu que predigui el seu destí. I exactament això succedia. Al primer la veu ha dit que ella s'havia de casarse amb el rei de Nàpols. I ell rey de Nàpols va venir en el seu carruatge a buscar-la i se casaren. La segona és la veu que diu que ella va a casar-se amb el rei de França. I també això s'ha passat com previst. A la tercera la veu va dir que havia de casarse amb "es ca negre sense nas" (a dog without a nose). A la mare de la noia aquesta cosa de cap manera no l'ha agradat, i volía que no surtia amb el ca, però finalment la noia es va inclinar davant la necessitat i ha seguit el ca fora. Pero aquest es el mon de l'aventura, i no pas un manual de zòofilia, i pertant el ca sense nas s'ha averiguat com a ningú altre que el fill maleït de l'emperador i l'emperadriu. S'ha curat al príncep en silenciant totes les campanes al país i ofegant a totes les aixetes, i se feren unes festes mai vistes quan Na Catalina va casarse com el ca sense nas redevenit home. I com diu la fórmula tradicionala dels contistas de Mallorca: ".. encara són vius si no són morts. I al cel mos vegem tots plegats".

Quina tonteria!


EN: I have found another old forgotten book at the backside of my bookshelf where I keep the stuff I bought during my study years in the 70s: "Rondaies Mallorquines", with fairy tales from Mallorca in the local dialect which differs from the continental variants in several respects, not least in the use of articles with an s- instead of the usual l- I remember that one of the traits which are quoted as proof that Sardic is particularly archaic is the use of similar s-articles, which according to the specialists go back to Latin "iste" instead of the usual "ille". I simply don't know whether they also are original on Mallorca, or whether they have been imported from Sardinian sometime later. Btw. there is a small Catalan enclave around Alghero on Sardinia, but it was only established around 1372, says the omniscient Wikipedia.

Edited by Iversen on 10 September 2013 at 3:08pm

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montmorency
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 Message 3371 of 3959
10 September 2013 at 11:09pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:


"Childhood" in Danish actually is "barndom" with an ordinary 'a'. Btw: The 'ø' in the
plural ("børn" = 'children') actually represents a phonetical change caused by the
ending -u in Old Norse (going back to Proto-Norse), and it still remains intact
centuries after that ending disappeared. Just as the streets in old medieval towns
still run where they were laid out a thousand years ago, even though none of the
individual houses have survived. The "-dom" in "barndom" and "-dømme" in "kongedømme"
must also be the result of old long forgotten processes whose effects lived longer than
the processes themselves.

PS: for a dissenting voice concerning the socalled u-Umlaut, see
this paper from
the Linguistic conference in Reykjavík in May 2013, where the blame for the 'ö¨ion
Modern Icelandic and 'ø' in Danish is squarely put on factors surviving from Proto-
Nordic.



Oops, careless of me. I think the spurious circle was a little splodge on my screen!
Time to clean both my screen and my glasses!

Thanks for the interesting extra information. The streets in the centre of the town
where I live are still laid out according to the medieval pattern, although almost all
of the buildings have changed. Only two churches and the few remains of an abbey go
right back, although there is one old house from about the 15th century or something
like that.


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tractor
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 Message 3372 of 3959
11 September 2013 at 8:01am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
(…] not least in the use of articles with an s- instead of the usual l- I remember that one of the
traits which are quoted as proof that Sardic is particularly archaic is the use of similar s-articles, which according to
the specialists go back to Latin "iste" instead of the usual "ille". I simply don't know whether they also are original on
Mallorca, or whether they have been imported from Sardinian sometime later.

They are also used in dialects on the Costa Brava in Catalonia.
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Iversen
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 Message 3373 of 3959
11 September 2013 at 4:41pm | IP Logged 
In the thread about "Ostfriesisch Ostfriesisch accent in German" Josquin writes "the ancestor of the modern Frisian languages is Old Frisian, while the ancestor of Platt is Old Saxon. Modern Standard German, however, is derived from Old High German". And as I added there High German split out from the Frisian and Saxon branches with the 'Second consonant shift' somewhere between the 3rd and 5th centuries AD. It is less clear when the socalled Ingwäonic languages separated into the forerunners of Frisian/English, Saxon/Low German and maybe some Jutish dialects, but they had definitely separated when the first comprehesive texts appear (Caedmon's Hymn in Anglosaxon was allegeldly composed composed between 658 and 680). Around the 8.-9. Century and onwards we have text samples from all these languages that show that by then they had separated - and also that Old Norse (from the Northern Germanic branch) at that time had crystallized from Proto-Norse as represented by the earliest runic inscriptions, but still not split into Icelandic/Norwegian and Danish/Swedish/(Gutnish).

One funny thing I hit upon while reading about these topics is that the map in the Wikipedia article about the Ingvaeonic languages clearly marks the whole of Denmark as belonging to the Ingwäonian area, unlike the map from the article about Northern Germanic languages. However there is a considerable timelapse between the two - the first map claims to represent the state of affairs around 1 AD, whereas the second one describes the situation during the Viking age almost a thousand years later. The problem is that there isn't one single text to study from from around 1 AD so what the linguistic situation actually was at this time is anybody's guess. However there are two interesting facts: 1) the Jutish dialects use a prepositioned article like the Western Germanic languages, and there are a number of other things in them that point Westwards, 2) there are historical sources and legends which can be interpreted as reverberations of a takeower of Denmark from Sweden (by Swedes and Geats), occurring somewhere in the great migration period.

For instance Jordanes claimed wrote in his book about the Goths (from around 550) that a tribe called the herules had been evicted from Denmark and/or Southern Sweden by the Danes. And Saxo Grammaticus tells about king Hrólfr Kraki, who was defeated by king Adils (whom some have identified with Attila the Hun, apparently without any other foundation than the similarity in their names plus a burning desire to deny that anything interesting could have happened in Scandinavia). The English article (and the Norwegian one) are so detailed that you actually can compare the descriptions in sources as diverse as Beowulf and Gesta Danorum, which makes it believable that the legends are founded on facts. One weakness is that it usually isn't enough to conquer a country and kill its king to make a whole population change its language (except when done with true Roman brutality and cunning as in France/Gallia or in Dacia). Another problem is that I haven't seen any reference to relevant changes in the language of the runic stones, and certainly not one that hinted at a purely Western Germanic language in Denmark before the supposed time of the aforementioned incidents. Besides those Herules("erilaR") were associated with Goths and Huns rather than with anything or anybody to the West of Denmark. Maybe Jordanes just got the history of the tribes mixed up when he wrote his book as a summary of a far more comprehensive, but lost work by Cassiodoros - the sources on the internet mostly assume that the Herules came (or returned) to an area to the East of the Danes, and that that's where they were expelled from - not from presentday Denmark.

Or more likely the tribe actually located in the Western part of Denmark wasn't the Herules, but the even more mysterious 'Harudes' (Charudes) mentioned by Ptolemy:

"The Charudes or Harudes were a Germanic group first mentioned by Julius Caesar as one of the tribes who had followed Ariovistus across the Rhine. While Tacitus' Germania makes no mention of them, Ptolemy's Geographia locates the Charudes (Χαροῦδες) on the east coast of the Cimbrian peninsula (modern Jutland). (...) The central area in the east of jutland, a traditional district (syssel) of Jutland, is thought to be derived from Harudes. Its inhabitants were called harudes in Danish, and this tribe is suspected to be the founders of the first danish city in the center of east Jutland, called harusam or just Arus(City of the Harudes). This particular city was situated by the sea inside a great bay(called Vik which led to the name vikings) and with a natural port, later became the center of the danish viking kings empire. The remainings of this ancient city and the tribe called Harudes, have been found under todays Capital of the danish mainland, Aarhus. In the 500 years of the Danish/British viking reign(700-1200) the city was known as Aros and is described by several written sources and the city name was stamped on all the coins, the viking kings had made in their capital."

Interesting to see one's own town mentioned, although I spell it "Århus". And I have never heard about the haruds or the etymology deriving Aros from the harudes, nor that the town should have been the capital of anything sizeable ... but who knows?

Edited by Iversen on 13 September 2013 at 10:28am

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Iversen
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Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
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 Message 3374 of 3959
13 September 2013 at 10:22am | IP Logged 
My newspaper today gleefully announces that the University in my town will get a new Danish center for Foreign Languages. Two ministers are involved: the minister of Education ('uddannelse') and the Minister of Education ('undervisning') ... with three parties in the government you need a lot of chairs to find room for all those ambitious youngsters. The goal is to "raise the level of teaching in languages like German, French and Spanish", and a representative from the university expects that it will "become a focal point for foreign language learning in Denmark". The minister of education ('uddannelse') Morten Østergaard finds that "this will be of benefit to the whole nation. And there is a real need because we can see that competences in foreign languages in Denmark are sliding downwards even though we need the opposite. Although we emphasize English, we definitely also need competences in for instance German".

And how many employees will this new center then have? Eh, one - one less than the number of ministers who participated in the solemn celebration. The students will of course celebrate the new center with a day of sports and the "biggest Friday night bar" in Denmark. And then all are happy...

Edited by Iversen on 13 September 2013 at 11:38am

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montmorency
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 Message 3375 of 3959
13 September 2013 at 11:21am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
My newspaper today gleefully announces that the University in my town
will get a new Danish center for Foreign Languages. Two ministers are involved: the
minister of Education ('uddannelse') and the Minister of Education ('undervisning') ...
with three parties in the government you need a lot of chairs to find room for all
those ambitious youngsters. The goal is to "raise the level of teaching in languages
like German, French and Spanish", and a representative from the university expects that
it will "become a focal point for foreign language learning in Denmark". The minister
of education ('uddannelse') Morten Østergaard finds that "this will be of benefit to
the whole nation. And there is a real need because we can see that competences in
foreign languages in Denmark are sliding downwards even though we need the opposite.
Although we emphasize English, we definitely also need competences in for instance
German".

And how many employees will this new center then have. Eh, one - one less than the
number of ministers who participated in the solemn celebration. The students will of
course celebrate the new center with a day of sports and the "biggest Friday night bar"
in Denmark. And then all are happy...



Dict.cc gives "apprenticeship" before "education" for "uddanelse", so I wonder if he's
responsible for what we might call vocational education (and training)?


Anyway, thanks for the story. It's better than Borgen! Please keep us updated with
progress reports. At least your politicians are going through the motions of taking
languages seriously. Ours just want to go back to the 1940s and 1950s I think, with
school pupils wearing blazers and carrying leather satchels, boys wearing caps and
girls boaters. (The last bit is not true, but it probably will be next week, or next
month). And of course, everything taught the "good old fashioned way".
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sans-serif
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 Message 3376 of 3959
13 September 2013 at 11:36am | IP Logged 
montmorency wrote:
Dict.cc gives "apprenticeship" before "education" for "uddanelse", so I wonder if he's responsible for what we might call vocational education (and training)?

I seem to recall hearing that word in the meaning 'degree' as in "I have a degree from Copenhagen University", so I would guess that the more general 'education' is a better translation. I have no idea what dannelse means, though, so perhaps Iversen can enlighten us on the etymology of the word.

EDIT:
I completely missed the larger context of your post, Monty. Sorry. 'Undervisning' sounds like it might be associated with the lower levels of education, so everything before university, or compulsory education, possibly.

Edited by sans-serif on 13 September 2013 at 11:46am



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