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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 1481 of 3959
08 November 2009 at 12:31pm | IP Logged 
PoR: Eu não tenho um único favorito (embora, de claro, sempre tem algumas pinturas mais bem sucedidos do que as outras). Estas imagens, entretanto, são especiais na minha geração por ter um modelo literário, cuja atmosfera tentei capturar. Porém, Völuspá é a única destas fontes, que eu discuto em outro lugar p. 118 neste fórum - e o motivo é óbvio: que essa poema é fundamental para a compreensão do mundo espiritual dos antigos nórdicos.Contudo não estou totalmente satisfeito com a tradução - não segue completamente o texto, e não consegue capturar completamente o estilo apocalíptico do texto original.

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Among the paintings in my 'language series' Hobbema prefers the one illustrating Old Norse through the poem Völuspá (the prophecy of the 'Völve'). I don't have a single favorite myself, although there will of course allways be paintings that turn out better than others. I have tried to catch the atmosphere of each literary source, and I hope this can be seen in the style of each painting. However Völuspá is special in at least one sense: it is the only one of these that is discussed elsewhere in this thread (p.118). And it is fundamental to the understanding of old Norse mythology, - something like the Apokalypse of the vikings. One of my grievances with the translation I quote at page 118 is that it doesn't quite succeed in catching the apocalyptic 'tone' of the poem because the translator doesn't dare challenge the booundaries of the English language, for instance through subject-less sentences and inverted word order. The English auxiliary verb "do" should be kicked out of any translation of Völuspá, because it serves to destroy exactly those mechanisms in Old Norse that makes Völuspá a monumental experience.

One more reason for learning Old Norse (or Icelandic)

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Fasulye heeft een oude Nederlandse draad momentaan nieuw leven ingeblazen, en dus heb ik eraan herinnerd dat ik in 2008 de http://player.omroep.nl/?aflid=*** gevonden heb. Elke uitzending heeft een nummer (***), zoals 2145615 voor een fijne uitzending in het Nederlands van die dierentuins van Emmen en Zürich. Wanneer je een nummer hebt gevonden, kan je door "meer afleveringen" soortgelijke uitzendingen vinden. Toch is 't zo dat dit slechts een achterdeur in een systeem waarvan de hoofdingang kan hier gevonden worden. En dit moment kijk ik op de bezoek van de 'Museumbend' en het Marinemuseum. - 204220 is het geheim nummer op deze uitzending.

Fasulye has revived an old Dutch thread, and thus I was reminded of a backdoor to www.avro.nl, a system of Dutch internet TV stations with an overwhelming wealth of documentary programs. I found it while I was searching frantically for a substitute for AVRO museum TV, the site that gave me my Dutch epiphany moment. Somehow I found a player.omroep.nl with programs about zoos and tourist destinations and a lot of other things. However when I went from this one to the main portal, www.avro.dk I found a series of museum visits - with a bunch of children roaming through some of the most interesting Dutch museums. It is not quite the old Museum TV, but a fair substitute.




Edited by Iversen on 08 November 2009 at 2:38pm

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Hobbema
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 Message 1482 of 3959
09 November 2009 at 6:39pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
...essa poema é fundamental para a compreensão do mundo espiritual dos antigos nórdicos.Contudo não estou totalmente satisfeito com a tradução - não segue completamente o texto, e não consegue capturar completamente o estilo apocalíptico do texto original.


Eu gostaria de fazer uma pergunta, para você. Este é um série de linguagem, mas há arte ou outros pinturas que inspirou Völuspá? Eu vou adivinhar, e vou dizer Munch, com alguns Bosch. Sem os demônios, é claro. Mas definitivemente apocalíptico.
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Iversen
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 Message 1483 of 3959
10 November 2009 at 2:42am | IP Logged 
POR: Eu considero o meu estilo de pintura como claramente surrealistico, mas com influências de muitas outras fontes - de expressionistas como Munch às bandas desenhadas (e muitas vezes também com os demônios). A ideea de a vender as minhas nunca foi uma tentação para mim, e então eu não tive nunca a tomar conta das opiniões de críticos, galeristas e colecionadores de arte. Pintei exclusivamente num centro cultural chamado 'a Casa' ('Huset), mas tornou-se mais difícil encontrar espaço livre, e muitas vezes tive música que eu odiava, então em algum momento eu parei completamente com a pintura. As minhas visões pictóricas de hoje são mais tridimensionais e mais complexas (sobretudo depois que eu aprendi sobre fractais), e também não vou ter cheiro de terebentina em meu apartamento, então eu realmente não tenho pintado desde o meados dos anos 90s.

FR: Si on veut quelque chose de aussi compliqué que mes peintures la grammaire géorgienne n'est pas la pire chose qui soit. J'ai toujours l'excellent "Parlons Géorgien" (L'Harmattan 1887) dans mon sac, et je pense déjà a commander encore quelques livres dans cette série - aussi comme un alternatif aux ubiquitaires livrex anglophones. Maintenant je suis parvenu aux chapitre où l'on explique pourquoi le géorgien est considéré comme une language ergative. D'abord il faut répéter que cette langue possède un cas nommé 'narratif'. Avec les verbes au présent, on a le sujet au nominatif et un éventuel objet direct à l'accusatif, de même avec l'imparfaitet le futur, mais avec un verbe au passé 'accomplie' (parfait composé) on a le sujet au narratif et l'object direct .... au nominatif ! Il existe deux autres passées, résultatif et dubitatif, et avec ces formes le sujet est au datif et l'objet direct encore une fois au nominatif. Et pour compliquer les choses encore un peu, il existe des verbes à construction 'objective' où les cas sont invertis même au présent. Et comme si cela n'était pas assez, il y a des petits marqueurs représentant les membres de la phrase attachés au verbe-racine (avec d'autres marqueurs, telles les désinances de personne et nombre), et si le cas changent avec les temps, les marques attachés aux verbes changent avec eux. Whauuw!

SP: Anoche vi una emisión en TVE sobre españoles que viven en Etiopía. Había un fotógrafo (que había pasado 4 meses en cautiverio en Somalia), un misionero que havia fundado una escuela para huerfanos, una guía de viajes de aventura que, entre otros, visitó una iglesia acima de un montículo con un grupo de turistas, y tambien periodistas, un comerciante de vino, una muchacha que estaba toda entusiasmada con el bailar, y varios otros. Fue bastante abrumador.

GR: Αλλά υπήρχε ένα αλλο αστείο πράγμα: όταν είδα την ισπανική εκπομπή στην τηλεόραση δείχνουν, εργάστηκα με κομμάτια του κειμένου από τα ελληνικά περιοδικά μου. Και έτσι σκέφτηκα ότι vα είναι διασκεδαστικό να γράψω τις ισπανικές λέξεις-κλειδιά μου με ελληνικά γράμματα. Κάνει επíσης αυτó οι Έλληνες με τα τοπωνύμια και ονόματα προσώπων, ώστε να υπάρχει προηγούμενο, αλλά και στις σημειώσεις μου από την Αιθιοπία, μεταξύ άλλων να υρήκει αυτά τα λόγια: Αμαρικó (Amarikó, idioma local), βαιλάρ κομο λóκος (λóκοι) (bailar como locos), καλενδάριο ϊoυλιάνα (calendário juliana) y "μπατáν αμασιναλó" = γκρáσιας (grácias)

----------

My painting style is clearly surrealistic, but with influences from things as different as Edward Munch and cartoons. I didn't like the stench of turpentine in my one-room flat so I always painted in a local cultural center called 'the House'. But it became more and more difficult to find some free space, and there was more and more often ennervating musical pollution in the rooms, so I stopped in the mid 90s - at that point I had also more than enough pictures to cover my walls (around 150). Nowadays my visual imagery is purely threedimensional and much more complicated (since I learnt about fractals), so I have not seriously thought about taking up painting again - painting is in my opinion obsolete, like black-and-white photo and theatre.

I have also had my daily dose of Georgian (Kartuli, - NOT the dialect of Atlanta!). The Kartvelebi have a case called narrative, and while they use subjects in the Nominative and direct objects in the Accusative in present tense like in most Indoeuropeans languages, the subject is in the 'narrative' with the perfect tense and in the dative with some other weird past tenses ... and then the direct subject hijacks the nominative case. Besides there are some verbs that generally switches the cases of subjects and object. These complications combined are the reason for calling Kartuli an ergative language. On top of that comes other weird details, such as making the central verb a mirror of the structure of the whole phrase by adding casebound pre- and postfixes to both ends of it. What a language! Whauw!

Finally: I watched Spanish TV from TVE about Spaniards that had chosen to live in Ethiopia. At the same time I studied excerpts from my Greek science magazines, so when I took notes from the Spanish program I wrote then with Greek letters, - not too farfetched really, as this is what the Greeks themselves do with foreign place- and personal names.


Edited by Iversen on 12 November 2009 at 1:37am

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Iversen
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 Message 1484 of 3959
10 November 2009 at 10:28am | IP Logged 
SW: Jag sitter hemma och arbetar i dag (jag tester ett datorprogram) och det betyder att jag kan titta på TV samtidigt. Jag sitter just nu och ser sändning om Ilon Wikland, som illustrerat många av Astrid Lindgren böcker (Mio min Mio, Karlsson på taket, Ronja Rövardotter - men inte Pippi Långstrump). Båda låter lite finlandssvenska, och Ilon har en anledning för detta, eftersom hon var tvungen att fly från Estland som barn. Det visar sig att många bilder i böckerna egentlig er memoarer från Haapsalu i Estland - och ursvenska Karlsson är modellerad efter en liten fransk farbror. Kanske jag inte har studerat de böcker nyligen, men Astrid Lindgren är en världsledande star inom barnlitteraturen, så jag känner några av dom från min barndom.

Astrid Lindgren blev också kennt for något [annat: "I valrörelsen 1976 publicerades hennes novell Pomperipossa i Monismanien i Expressen, där hon ansåg att det var absurt att egenföretagare kunde få betala mer i marginalskatt än de tjänade. Novellen fick stor uppmärksamhet och den och regeringens bemötande av Lindgren anses ha varit en bidragande faktor till att socialdemokraterna förlorade regeringsmakten" (quote from Sedish Wikipedia)


---

I work at home today (I'm testing a computer program), so I can watch TV while working. While I wrote the Swedish text above I watched an interview with Ilon Wikland, who illustrated many of Astrid Lindgren's books (though not the most wellknown, Pippi Longstockings). Both she and the interviewer (a female) have a Finlandsswedish tone to their language, which in the case of Ilon is understandable as she fled from Estland as a child. She will try to get buried there (in Haapsalu) near her grandparents, who raised her, but she doesn't want to live in Estland even now - it brings back too many memories.

The author Astrid Lindgren is also known for something else than her books for children. In 1976 she got seriously irritated with the ruling socialdemocrats because she was taxed more than she earned (!) She then wrote an ironic little tale called "Pomperipossa i Monismanien" which brought the system so much in discredit that the socialdemocratic party lost the elections, opening up for a brief non socialist interlude in Sweden.


Edited by Iversen on 10 November 2009 at 2:50pm

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Iversen
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 Message 1485 of 3959
12 November 2009 at 1:01am | IP Logged 
RU: Это утром я прочитал в газете, что славянские части Академический книжный магазин в Århus закрылся (я живу в Орхусе, Дания). Когда я изучал французский, у магазина также романский отдел, но он уже давно закрыл. Y славянского oтделовa был своего расцвета при коммунизме, где часто был трудно прийти восточние европейские и советские книги. Иногда им приходилось контрабанды!Я еще не изучал русский или другой языки славянских, но славянский книжный магазин был очень полезным для меня, когда я начал изучать эти Языки.В будущем я должен довольствоватьця с путешествыми покупкaми и Интернетoм.

This morning I read in a newspaper that the Slavic section of the Academic Bookstore in my town has closed. While I studied French there was also a Romance section, but that one's gone long ago. The Slavic bookstore (as it was called) had its heyday while the communists ruled in Eastern Europe and the Sovjet Union because it could get books out of those countries which else had been impossible to find in Denmark. But now it has given up due to economical problems. I'm glad that it survived long enough for me to take up the Slavic languages, because I have bought a number of grammars, dictionaries and annotated books there. But from now on I'll have to rely on acquisitions during travels and on internet bookstores. Rest in peace, dear bookstore.


Edited by Iversen on 12 November 2009 at 1:18am

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SII
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 Message 1486 of 3959
12 November 2009 at 4:45am | IP Logged 
As usual, you wrote understandable but with some mistakes (cases etc).

Iversen wrote:
RU: Это утром я прочитал в газете, что славянские части Академический книжный магазин в Århus закрылся (я живу в Орхусе, Дания).


Этим утром я прочитал в газете, что славянский отдел (or славянская секция) Академического книжного магазина в Орхусе закрылся (or закрылась if used секция).

Quote:
Когда я изучал французский, у магазина также романский отдел, но он уже давно закрыл.


Когда я изучал французский, у магазина был также романский отдел, но он уже давно закрыт.

Quote:
Y славянского oтделовa был своего расцвета при коммунизме, где часто был трудно прийти восточние европейские и советские книги.


Расцвет славянского отдела был при коммунизме, когда было трудно привезти книги из восточно-европейских стран и Советского Союза.

Quote:
Иногда им приходилось контрабанды!


Иногда их приходилось доставлять контрабандой.

Quote:
Я еще не изучал русский или другой языки славянских, но славянский книжный магазин был очень полезным для меня, когда я начал изучать эти Языки.


Я ещё не изучал русский или другие славянские языки, но, когда я начал это делать (i.e. изучать славянские языки), этот отдел был для меня очень полезен.

Quote:
В будущем я должен довольствоватьця с путешествыми покупкaми и Интернетoм.


В будущем я должен довольствоваться покупками в путешествиях и Интернетом.

Edited by SII on 12 November 2009 at 4:47am

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Iversen
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 Message 1487 of 3959
12 November 2009 at 12:13pm | IP Logged 
Thanks. As usual too many foolish errors....
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SII
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 Message 1488 of 3959
12 November 2009 at 8:11pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
Thanks. As usual too many foolish errors....


But now all the sentences are fully understandable regardless of mistakes :) It seems that mistakes are less numerous than early.


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