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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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tarvos
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 Message 3337 of 3959
07 August 2013 at 8:31am | IP Logged 
The garpegenitiv in Afrikaans sounds like
informal slangy Dutch. You can just not use it
in writing.
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Iversen
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 Message 3338 of 3959
07 August 2013 at 10:04am | IP Logged 
I beg to differ. The South African sources I read on the internet use the Garpe-genitiv a lot - far more than Dutch, Platt, Frisian and Norwegian as far as I can see, and it might even be seen as a Dutch influence if I avoided the construction in Afrikaans. It is clear that the construction has lost terrain in Europe, but it would be interesting to know how the situation was in the Low Countries in 1600s when the Dutch went to South Africa and became boers.

I have collected a few more examples from today's news at http://www.rsg.co.za/nuus.asp - and as far as I can see there is nothing slangy about them:

Clayson Monyela (…)sê Suid-Afrika se hoëkommissariaat in Nairobi sal die hele dag oop wees om Suid-Afrikaners by te staan (quoted from a notice about South African citizens stranded in Kenya, where there has been a fire at the main airport)

John Moodey van die Demokratise Alliansie het die party se medelye aan Naidoo se familie en vriende oorgedra.

Clinton sê Madiba* se familie moet ruimte gegun word om sy hospitalisering te verwerk (* Nelson Mandela)

Btw. the Garpe-genitive has never been a part of standard Danish, but I visited the aquarium in Nørre Vorupør on the Northern part of our West Coast two days ago, and they had some drawings with local themes hanging around. And the text on one of this was something like "Niels hans første cykel". So maybe the local Jutish dialect also had Garpe-genitiv. After all the Jutish dialects differ from 'normal' Lowcopenhagenish-infected Danish in several other important ways, like having no postclitic definite article, but only a prepositioned "a" or "æ", so it wouldn't come as a shock if at least the coastal dialects also had a construction used in both Norwegian and all the Ingvaeonic languages.


Edited by Iversen on 07 August 2013 at 10:40am

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tarvos
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 Message 3339 of 3959
07 August 2013 at 11:58am | IP Logged 
I meant that it is how you use it in Dutch.
In Afrikaans it is standard of course.
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Iversen
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 Message 3340 of 3959
07 August 2013 at 1:54pm | IP Logged 
Nice to have that confirmed. I shall refrain from using it in Dutch, but use it profusely in Afrikaans.

I am right now listening to a ferocious wholesale refutation of the publication by Bouckaert et al. which not too far ago was launched as the final truth about the origin of Indoeuropean. Two scholars, Martin W. Lewis and Asya Pereltsvaig, point for point show how the theses of Bouckaert et al.rest upon dubious assumptions and lead to conclusions that can be refuted with documented data. The issue at stake is basically whether Indoeuropean originated on the Kurgan steppes around 6.000 years BC and arrived in Europe with marauding warriors, or whether it spread slowly and peacefully with farming techniques from Anatolia from around 8.000 BC. A priori both are possible, but the video shows in detail how the Bouckaert group fails to consider fundamental things like borrowing of words and the consequences of differences in development speed, and the result is a sequence of positively false claims about language groups as soon as we move inside the main families (Romance, Slavic, Germanic languages etc.). I can't follow everything they say, but I know the Indoeuropean languages in Europe well enough to see that Bouckaert et al. are at odds with wellknown and provable facts about the history of those languages (listen to the sequence after approx. 15'), and if they can't even get those documentable things right then it is hard to believe any of their other claims.

We have actually discussed this problematic in a thread here at HTLAL, and I'll have to reread that thread to see what we wrote (and in particular whether I also have trusted the work of what seems to be a group of hopeless bunglers). Statistical analysis is not dead in linguistics just because a group of researchers couldn't see the difference beween a loanword and an age old original word which has made it through a series of soundshifts and grammatical shifts, but it is evidently harder to use when you have to take the complicated etymological realities into consideration. And statisticians may not be those who are most in tune with the real world.

PS: I have still not decided whether I believe Indoeuropean come with nomads from Kurgan or with farmers from Anatolia. Contrary to expectation I haven't found a thread about the question here at HTLAL, but I can see that I referred to the 'Turkish theory' in this thread in a message from June, and at the the time I saw this geographical origin as the most likely one - but I also mentioned that the Bell beaker culture represented a fairly drastic change in the population of Europe, and it can be dated to around 2800 BC, which is a long long time after the dates which have been proposed in both the Kurgan and the Anatolian theory. As far as I know the first Indoeuropean texts in Europe are those written in archaic Greek in Linear B, found on Crete and datable to after 1400. Hittite texts only go slighter further back, to around 1650, so it may be impossible to prove that any specific population anywhere spoke an Indoeuropan language several thousand years earlier. We can only study the cultural changes and maybe differences in the DNA of ancient skeletons - and assume that changes in language followed the changes in culture. Whether the new languages arrived with the Mycenean Greeks or with the Beaker people or even before is an open question.



Edited by Iversen on 09 August 2013 at 12:08am

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Iversen
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 Message 3341 of 3959
08 August 2013 at 11:24pm | IP Logged 
IT: Raiuno sta ben disposto verso me questi giorni. Qualche giorni fa hanno mostrato "Passaggio all'Oveste" e oggi c'è "Super Quark". Proprio adesso vengo a sapere che gli Stati Uniti possano superare l'Arabia Saudita come il più grande produttore di petrolio, perché ora è possibile sfruttare l'olio di scisto e altre fonti atipiche di olio. Allora le auto americane diventano probabilmente più lunghe di 2,3 metri e berrano benzina come un buco nella terra come negli anni 50. Ma forse è già troppo tarde per Detroit?

Inoltre ho fatto liste di parole polacche - ho già scrritto qualche centinaie di parole con -a, ed in un momento continuerò con b- .... e così via.

The Italian TV station has been nice to me lately. A couple of days ago I watched "The North West Passage", and right now I watch Super Quark, with a clip about the enormous eateries on modern cruiseships, with information about onboard recycling, desalination etc. Right before they explained how USA may become the largest oil producing nation on the planet by using oil shale and other atypical sources. And my guess is that the American cars then grow a couple of meters and return to their gasoline guzzling habits from the 50s and 60s. But maybe it already is too late for Detroit to catch on to that wawe?

Besides I do Polish wordlists - I'm already through a- and midway through b-, and I intend to continue all the way to the weird dotted ż which already has given me problems because it is difficult to separate from ź with an accent - not only in printed texts, but even more in my own handwriting. There ought to be a law against letters with more than one kind of diacritics - especially when one of them is a dot!

Right now Superquark shows a cannibalistic chimp orgy. Are we supposed to like them more after such clips? Or like them at all??

Edited by Iversen on 08 August 2013 at 11:33pm

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tarvos
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 Message 3342 of 3959
09 August 2013 at 6:13am | IP Logged 
The garpegenitiv is very common in dialectal
speech. Probably it survived for that reason.
I myself use it colloquially but it is wrong
in writing. Given that Afrikaans developed
from those dialects most prone to retaining
the garpegenitiv construction, I am not at all
surprised it survived in Afrikaans when much
of the language is a codified long lost
dialect to me.

Edited by tarvos on 09 August 2013 at 6:14am

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Iversen
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 Message 3343 of 3959
12 August 2013 at 2:25am | IP Logged 
It is fairly late in the night here so I'll just mention that I have spent the weekend with my family, and today the whole day was dedicated to an excursion to the town Vejle and the Lion Park/Zoo at Givskud. But at least I have reached d- in the Polish alphabet, I have read some Afrikaans and I have watched TV in Norwegian, Swedish, German, French and English since my last message here..

Edited by Iversen on 12 August 2013 at 2:27am

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meramarina
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 Message 3344 of 3959
12 August 2013 at 2:53am | IP Logged 
I am continually amazed at your multilingual TV access! I watch some online, but nothing like what you describe. However, I'd never have guessed that the phrase "cannibalistic chimp orgy" would ever appear in your writing. Perhaps you might check out some programs about bonobos instead? I love zoos, too! I'd love to do a multilingual worldwide zoo tour. That would be excellent language practice. So far I have only spent one day at the zoo in Leipzig, and it was great!


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