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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 1257 of 3959
21 August 2009 at 10:52am | IP Logged 
I have already made a somewhat similar comment in the following quote:

"However the border between the actual language elements in these two groups is more fuzzy than the article suggests. For instance etymological residues, partly irregular derivation and inflexion and mangled expressions are all a fact of life for a language student. This also applies to the happy feeling that everything gets more and more automated the better you know a language. Ironically native speakers don't inflect as much as beginners according to some studies, - instead they remember each verbal form as a separate entity because they have seen it so many times before. But as a general [rule] rote memorization becomes less and less important for the learning process, and derivation - including the formation of complete sentences - take over. "

For me the central thesis of the article is the idea that you learn irreducible things like single words through other parts of the brain than those that are responsible for the use of those entities. And it is up to the neurophysiologists with a knack for language to prove or disprove that.

--------

Inspired by another thread I have spent some minutes reading through a homepage with some information about Swiss German. It has an English version, but also a Norwegian one, because the lady who wrote it is a native Norwegian Norsewoman from Norway who somehow just happened to learn fluent Schwiizertüütsch. And of course I read the Norwegian version (I already read too much English). It is not very advanced, but contains some useful and interesting details, such as this one:

Sveitserne bruker aldri preteritum. Skal de fortelle om noe som skjedde i går, bruker de perfektum. De sier for eksempel aldri "i går var jeg hjemme", men "i går har jeg vært hjemme". "Gestern war ich zu Hause" blir altså erstattet med "Gestern bin ich zu Hause gewesen", høytysk skrivemåte, eller med sveitsertysk uttale: Geschter bin i di Hei gsii.
(ENG: The Swiss never use the past tense of the verb. If they want to talk about something that happened yesterday, they use the perfect tense.).

And yes this should have been written in Swiss German, but...


Edited by Iversen on 21 August 2009 at 10:56am

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Lingua
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 Message 1258 of 3959
21 August 2009 at 11:14am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:


Sveitserne bruker aldri preteritum. Skal de fortelle om noe som skjedde i går, bruker de perfektum.



Jeg tror at dette også forekommer i sydlige deler av Tyskland.


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densou
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 Message 1259 of 3959
21 August 2009 at 3:33pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
(ENG: The Swiss never use the past tense of the verb. If they want to talk about something that happened yesterday, they use the perfect tense.).


you should know that occurs with spoken Italian as well - I'd say that Italian imperfect tense replaced our "passato remoto" as "passato prossimo" became more widespread than "imperfetto" :(
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DaraghM
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 Message 1260 of 3959
21 August 2009 at 4:26pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:

SER: У Београду, тамо је карневал бродова за време моје посете. Од Београда до Солуна возом.



I've never looked at Serbian before, but this is very interesting. Is the Serbian 'j' pronounced similar to the Polish 'j'. Taking a quick guess at some words, is it as follows ?

Београду - Accusative of Belgrade.
за време - During (Same as Russian)
возом - Instrumental of воз (train)

For a couple of seconds, I though карневал was the past tense, until I realised it was simply carnival.

[EDIT]

Just discovered the Serbian letter ћ. It's seems to be unique to their alphabet, and is the same as the reduced Planck constant, denoted ħ.

Edited by DaraghM on 21 August 2009 at 4:36pm

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Iversen
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 Message 1261 of 3959
21 August 2009 at 7:30pm | IP Logged 
У Београду, тамо је карневал бродова за време моје посете. Након тога oд Београда до Солуна возом.
U Beogradu, tamo je karneval brodova za vreme moje posete. Nakon toga od Beograda do Soluna vozom.
In Belgrad, there is boat-carnival at-time of my stay. After that from Belgrade to Saloniki by-train.

Luckily there is a one-to-one correspondance between Cyrillic and Latin letters when we are speaking about Serbian, and because of this I can use one of my two old Serbocroatian dictionaries with Latin letters when I study Serbian texts written with Cyrillic letters, - I have bought a Serbian-Italian dictionary earlier this year, but it has far less words than my old English and French-based dictionaries.

There are several funny letters in both versions:

č Č -----> ч Ч (/ʧ/)
ć Ć -----> ћ Ћ /ʨ/
đ Đ -----> ђ Ђ (/ʥ/)
š Š -----> ш Ш (/ʃ/)
ž Ž -----> ж Ж (/ʒ/)
dž Dž ----> џ Џ (/ʤ/)    

Besides Serbian Cyrillics have integrated the palatalization sign into the preceding consonant, which in my opinion is a slightly more logical notation than the Russian digraph ы:

њ Њ ---> nj Nj     
љ Љ ---> lj Lj

And j J is common to both alphabets. Presumably it is pronounced as English "y" in "layer" or й in Russian. But you shouldn't trust anything I say about Serbian pronunciation, - at least not before I have been down there. There are several places where you can see the complete alphabets with pronunciation hints; I have copied those of uniland above.

The Cyrillic version was developed in 1818 by the Serbian linguist Vuk Karadžić. The corresponding Latin version was develop by the Croat Ljudevit Gaj in 1830.

-------

And last, but not least: I'm now going top listen to Fasulye's third video.


Edited by Iversen on 21 August 2009 at 11:01pm

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Iversen
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 Message 1262 of 3959
22 August 2009 at 8:19pm | IP Logged 
Acum am ajuns la Bucuresti, unde locuiesc in un hotel cu patru stele, Moxa. Hotelul are un calculator cu acces gratuit, dar nici un scaun, si pentru asta numai o sa scriu un text scurt aici - si cum se poate observa, tastatura nu are tastele romani, de aceea lipsesc caracterele speciale. Am mers pe jos de la Gara de Nord la hotel si apoi cativa kilometri, dar altfel astazi numai am timp sa maninc si sa ma uit la TV. Iar eu nu va vorbi nici o limba in afara de ceea romaneasca in timpul ce sunt aici, ceea ce am explicat politicos la doamna de la receptie. In romana, fireste.

OK, I'm in Bucuresti, and I have walked a lot after my arrival around 16. So far I have kept my promise of speaking only Romanian, but I had to explain this at my hotel. In Romanian, of course. My first task was to by train tickets at Gara de Nord, and I have checked in at the hotel and watched the news in Romanian, - so far without problems. I'm writing this at a free computer at the hotel (without a chair to keep sessions brief), but it is rather dark so that I hardly can see the keyboard, - and the keyboard lacks the special Romanian letters. So you have to live with the same mangled orthography as that used by most Romanians on the internet. My apologies for that.


Edited by Iversen on 23 August 2009 at 6:01pm

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Iversen
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 Message 1263 of 3959
23 August 2009 at 5:59pm | IP Logged 
Stimati cititatori si cititatoare:

Astazi am viitat Muzeul national de Istorie, unde se afla o copia de coloana lui Traian, unde a descris cum a distrus tara si cultura dacilor, asasinat regul lor Decebal si luat aurul lor. Si el a fost atât de mândru că a fet ridica o coloana la Roma. Apoi am vizitat Palatul Printului, unde se afla un bust de Vlad Tepes, pe care se presupune că a fost aici. Si dupa asta un alt palat mai mare de un om nebun, dictatorul comunist Ceasucescu. Turul a fost condus in Englez, dar cu o majoritate de vizitatorii romani, si eu am auzit ca una doamna romana a intrebat pe ghida de ce nu se afle si un tur Romanesc. Din cauza banilor, s-a fost spus. Inapoi Muzeul National de Arta, galeriile Romani - si am avut un audio-ghid care a verbit romaneste. Apoi am plimbat la Piata Victoriei, unde am vizitat museile de Geologia (cu o expositia paleontologica) side Viata taranilor, - Museu de istoria Naturala a fost atit de inchis ca un anul 2006 unde am vizitat orasel pentru a doua oară.

In plus, am achizitionat o gramatica romana (in limba romana pentru romanii) - am vist uo librarie deschisa linga biserica Cretulescului, desi este duminica astazi. Si acum am ceas de televiziune toate seara.

--------

I have been running from one musuem to the next the whole day: the historical museum with a copy of Trajan's column where he boasts of conquering the Dacians, killing their king and destroying their culture in order to steal their gold, then the ruins of the former palace of Vlad the Impaler, who is a national hero here, then the big and ugly palace of Ceaucescu (where everybody including the Romanians had to follow an English tour, I overheard a Romanian lady's discussion with the guide about this), then the Romanian section of The National Art Museum, then several kilometers' walk to Piata Victoriei, where I saw the Geological museum (with paleontological collections) and the Museum af the Romanian Peasant, - but not the museum of Natural History which seems to be closed indefinitely.

And I also found an open bookstore (even though it's Sunday), and there I bought a Romanian grammar in Romanian for Romanians -which may not be an advantage.


Edited by Iversen on 23 August 2009 at 6:11pm

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 Message 1264 of 3959
23 August 2009 at 11:02pm | IP Logged 
To me it seems a bit one-sided visiting only musea on one single day. When I was in Paris 10 years ago, we visted a mixture of very different tourist attractions, among them not more than one museum a day. But we stayed there for more than a week. At that time unfortunately "Centre Pompidou" was closed due to reparation, so I could see it only from the outside.

Bad luck for you that the Museum of Natural History is closed indefinetely.

Fasulye

Edited by Fasulye on 23 August 2009 at 11:05pm



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