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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Fasulye
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 Message 1409 of 3959
15 October 2009 at 12:17pm | IP Logged 
Multan dankon pro via lasta post kun por mi tre utilaj klarigoj:-).

NB: Dum Esperanto-kunvenoj homoj nur krokodilas, cxar estas pli facile paroli sian naciecan lingvon ol Esperanton. Por poliglotuloj ne estas bona rimedo krokodili!

Fasulye

Edited by Fasulye on 15 October 2009 at 12:23pm

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Iversen
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 Message 1410 of 3959
16 October 2009 at 2:33pm | IP Logged 
Fasulye wrote:
Por poliglotuloj ne estas bona rimedo krokodili!

Certainly not. And I'm surprised that the Esperantists tolerate crocodiling at their conventions.

-------

FR: C'est très calme ici. Semaine 42 est une semaine de vacances au Danemark ("efterårsferie" = vacances d'automne), et en plus c'est vendredi après-midi où les rares personnes qui travaillent commencent à préparer leur fin de semaine. J'aime bien travailler pendant les vacances puisque ce'est le temps où on peut se débarasser des piles des papier et de couriers électroniques sans que les stocks se remplissent à nouveau aussi vite que vous pouvez les vider. Mais juste maintenant je fais la pause.

Mon actuel livre-pour-retourner-à-la-maison-dans-l'autobus est la syntaxe de l'ancien français de monsieur Foulet que j'ai déjà mentionnée une foi ici. Et plus que j'y lis plus je adore l'érudition, persévérance et intelligence de ces vieux types académiques qui ont écrit les grammaires et dictionaires d'antan, - des gens comme Grevisse (grammarien), Littré (lexicographe indefatigable) et Foulet (spécialiste de l'ancienne langue françoise). Je suis arrivé au chapitre sur le pronom personnel, et les thèmes y sont d'abord le placement des diverses formes, et aussi le choix entre ces formes. Et il faut le dire: les règles ont beaucoup changé depuis les 12-13. siècles. Par exemple:

"Et puys qu'il ot comencié a escrire les letres, li prist il talant de faire les en rime" (p.133) -->
"Et (de)puis qu'il eut commencé à écrire le lettres, [il] lui prît le talent [=l'envie] de les faire en rime"

Je peut lire les anciennes textes, sauf quelques mots çá et lá, ce qui est un peu surprenant étant donné que je n'ai pas étudié cette phase du français au sérieux depuis les années soixante-dix. Et certes ge ausi ai talant (=envie) a escrire et parler le vieil francois ... mais c'est pas réaliste (trop peu de textes, aucunes sources orales et pas de dictionnaire Moderne->Ancien Français).

-------

It is the autumn holiday this week in Denmark, and it is Friday afternoon - so I have a quiet time at my job. My bus-back-home-from-work-book right now is the Old French Syntax from 1930 by Lucien Foulet, - and I am more and more impressed by these old academic blokes who wrote the grammars and dictionaries from anno dazumal. Just think of the time it must have taken to collect the thousands of examples you need to write a grammar without the use of computers? Well maybe I should know, because when I studied French in the 70s we also had to collect examples manually, and I remember that I collected 10.000 examples by hand from 10.000 pages for my final dissertation at the Romance languages institute as late as 1981.

In the French passage above I give an example of how the rules for the positioning and choice of personal pronouns in Old versus Modern French have changed. One of the things I like about the book by Foulet is that he explains these processes based on their inner logic, and not just as something to be learnt. And he explains that inner logic in terms that also can make me understand it.

I would certainly like to be able not only to read Old French, but also to read and speak it - but with few texts, no oral sources and no Modern-->Old French dictionary at my disposal it won't happen.


Edited by Iversen on 16 October 2009 at 10:55pm

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Iversen
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 Message 1411 of 3959
16 October 2009 at 10:24pm | IP Logged 
NO: I kveld har jeg sett norsk TV (Norsk Rikskringkasting 1), der det har vært et program kalt "nytt på nytt". Tanken er at det er to lag, som ut fra stikord skal gjette hvilke av denne ukens nyheter som der er henvist til. Noen ganger er det [spydigheter om] kjente personer, og favorittofferet denne gangen var [Torbjørn] Jagland som kunngjorde at Obama ville få årets Nobels fredspris. Det ble blant annet sagt at Jagland er på vei til påskeferie akkurat nå.

GR: Σε επιπλέον, έχω μελέτησει τις πρώτες σελίδες της ελληνικής έκδοσης του "Science Illustrated". Επειδή αναζητήσετε σχεδόν σε κάθε άλλη λέξη στον λεξικό, έχω περάσει όσο χρόνο με αυτές τις λίγες σελίδες, όπως ήδη πέρασα με την ανάγνωση του σύνολου του περιοδικού, αμέσως μετά το αγόρασα στην Θεσσαλονίκη. Και τώρα ξέρω ότι τα μάτια των παιδιών μπορεί να αλλάξει χρώμα από μπλε σε καφέ, διότι υπάρχει πιο μελανίνη σε κύτταρα στρώμα των ματιών των ενηλίκων, και ξέρω ότι οι χαυλιόδοντες των ελεφάντων αναπτύσσονται σε όλη τη ζωή. Αλλά στην πραγματικότητα ήξερα αυτό εκ των προτέρων.

-------

This evening I have among other things watched Norwegian TV NRK1 ("Norsk Rikskringkasting 1", literally 'nation-round-throwing 1'). They had an entertaining program called "Nyt på nyt" ('New on New(s)'), where two teams have to guess which of the news of the week is alluded to by the host. And in between they just make fun of people. This time the favorite victim was [Torbjørn] Jagland, i.e. the man who announced the choice of Obama for the Nobel Peace Prize (the only one that is decided in Norway - the other prizes are decided in Sweden). For instance they mentioned briefly that Mr. Jagland is now going on his Easter holiday, and that he can do this with peace in his mind after that he has finished writing all his Christmas cards (they forgot to mention that these were his Christmas cards for 2014, - but I suppose there is only so much you can find time for in a program of just 25 minutes).   

Apart from that I have spent at least an hour rereading and copying the first couple of pages of the Greek edition of "Science Illustrated", - at least as much time as it took me reading the whole thing right after I had bought it in Saloniki. This illustrates the difference between extensive and intensive reading. Now I know that children's eyes change from blue to brown because they get more and more melanine in the irises of their eyes, and also that the tusks of elephants grow throughout their life span. Well, maybe not exactly the newest news..


Edited by Iversen on 17 October 2009 at 2:15am

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Lizzern
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 Message 1412 of 3959
16 October 2009 at 11:07pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
NO: I kveld har jeg sett norsk TV (Norsk Rikskringkasting 1), der det har vært et program kalt "nytt på nytt". Tanken er at det er to lag, som ut fra stikord skal gjette hvilke av denne ukens nyheter som der er henvist til. Noen ganger er det stikkpiller til kjente personer, og favorittofferet denne gangen var Harry Jagland som kunngjorde at Obama ville få årets Nobels fredspris. Det ble blant annet sagt at Jagland er på vei til påskeferie akkurat nå.


Meget sjeldent at ordet 'stikkpille' brukes om noe annet enn dette, har i hvert fall aldri hørt det selv (forvirrende å lese, for å være helt ærlig)... Ordboken til UiO oppgir spydighet/finte som alternativ betydning, men ville styrt unna å bruke ordet slik - jeg regner med det gir lite mening for de aller fleste. 'Spydigheter' fungerer derimot aldeles utmerket :-)

Jagland heter Torbjørn til fornavn...
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Iversen
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 Message 1413 of 3959
17 October 2009 at 1:56am | IP Logged 
Jeg skrev ned noen stikkord på et brukt stykke papir, og "Harry" hørte åpenbart til noe annet. Men OK, jeg sier Torbjørn Jagland fra nå av. Kvahannuheiter Jagland er ikke veldig kjent i Danmark...

Det er verre med stikkpillerne (suppositorierne): Jeg slo ordet opp på Google og fant noen få tilfeller hvor det ble brukt til å angi "spydighet". Men det har trolig vært danskere, som forsøkte å skrive på norsk, og det går ju sjelden bra :) Og jeg har nettopp slått ordet opp i Pons' norske ordbok, og her det står "Stichelei: stikkpille, spydighet" - men tyskerne forstår åpenbart heller ikke norsk. Forresten kan vi også bruke "spydighed" på dansk, selv om det er litt gammeldags. Det er bare ikke helt det samme som en stikkpille, som er målrettet og presis.

Edited by Iversen on 17 October 2009 at 1:18pm

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Fasulye
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 Message 1414 of 3959
17 October 2009 at 1:26pm | IP Logged 
NL: Mijn hele TAC log is in de Trash. Maar daar is een server error, dus daar ging iets mis. Ik ben nog zo geschokt dat ik niet echt de motivatie heb om verder te studeren of om nog iets te posten. Als de server een probleem heeft, kan de administrator in het weekend niets doen. Voor mij is het een heel vervelende situatie.

Fasulye

Edited by Fasulye on 17 October 2009 at 1:39pm

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Iversen
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 Message 1415 of 3959
17 October 2009 at 2:27pm | IP Logged 
DU: Dit is rampzalig! Een ding is dat Jar-Ptitsa haar* log is geschrapt, maar dit was een doelbewuste actie. Wat is gebeurd met je log kan inderdaad gebeuren met iedere draad. Ik kan ook niet zien dat het in de Trash ligt, dus het zou kunnen noodig zijn terug te gaan naar de back-up, of als ze bestaan en werken. Ik heb gelukkig kopien gemaakt in Word van mijn eigen bijdragen aan mijn eigen log, maar het is waarschijnlijk niet veel anderen die zo wat hebben gedaan.

* correction (I had written z'n)

-------------

Dit was rampzalig, maar je log is nu weer zichtbaar - ik heb geen idee over wat er is gebeurt.. Maar je kunt nu ontspannen en weer gaan studeren!

Dette var skrækkeligt, men nu kan jeg faktisk se din logfil igen - herren må vide hvad der skete, men nu kan du i alt fald slappe af og genoptage dine studier.

To those who wonder what the *** is happening: Fasulye's Turkish/Danish log file was for a time invisible, maybe deleted, maybe in the trash bin. But right now it is visible again, so now she should be able to relax again and get back to studying Turkish and Danish as usual.

_________

Förresten har jag sett ett par språkrelaterade program i svenska televisionen. Först en sändning på finska vidrörande finländarnas forhållande till smarta kläder - och om frågan om svenskar (kanske fremmast finlandsvenskarna?) er mer modemedvetna enn finländerna. Det resulterade inte i någon klar slutsats, men jag konstaterade att ordföljden i finska tydligen liknar den svenska ordföljden. Jag kunde känna igen (eller gissa) några ord som sedan kunde användas som landmärken - samma princip fungerade också när jag satt på mitt hotellrum i Tirana, och tittade på albansk TV.

Det andra programmet fokuserade på några tolk-elever - och det språk de lärte at tolka var svensk teckenspråk. Vad jag särskilt vill minnas från denna sänding var en av de professionella tolkar, som satt och körde bil utan att röra vid ratten därför att han var upptagen av at "prata" med händerna. Jag är ganska säker på att det inte är tillåtet, inte heller i Sverige.

Incidentally, I have watched a couple of language-related programs in Swedish television. First, a broadcast in Finnish touching upon the attitude of ordinary Finnish people towards smart (and expensive) clothes - and upon the question whether Swedes (perhaps mainly Finland-Swedes?) are more or less trendy than Finns. The program did not lead to any clear conclusion, but I found that wordorder in Finnish apparently isn't too different from the Swedish wordorder, judged from the subtitles. I could identify (or guess) a few scattered words which could then be used as landmarks - the same principle also functioned for me when I sat in my hotel in Tirana, Albanian and watched TV one month ago.

The second program followed a group of interpreter pupils - and the language they were studying was Swedish sign language. What I especially will remember (with dread) from this program was a clip with one of the professional interpreters who drove a car without even touching the steering wheel, - because he was too busy 'talking' to the camera with his hands. I am quite sure that this isn't allowed in Sweden.


Edited by Iversen on 18 October 2009 at 5:30pm

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Fasulye
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 Message 1416 of 3959
17 October 2009 at 3:22pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
DU: Dit is rampzalig! Een ding is dat Jar-Ptitsa z'n log is geschrapt, maar dit was een doelbewuste actie. Wat is gebeurd met je log kan inderdaad gebeuren met iedere draad. Ik kan ook niet zien dat het in de Trash ligt, dus het zou kunnen noodig zijn terug te gaan naar de back-up, of als ze bestaan en werken. Ik heb gelukkig kopien gemaakt in Word van mijn eigen bijdragen aan mijn eigen log, maar het is waarschijnlijk niet veel anderen die zo wat hebben gedaan.

-------------

Dit was rampzalig, maar je log is nu weer zichtbaar - ik heb geen idee over wat er is gebeurt.. Maar je kunt nu ontspannen en weer gaan studeren!

Dette var skrækkeligt, men nu kan jeg faktisk se din logfil igen - herren må vide hvad der skete, men nu kan du i alt fald slappe af og genoptage dine studier.

To those who wonder what the *** is happening: Fasulye's Turkish/Danish log file was for a time invisible, maybe deleted, maybe in the trash bin. But right now it is visible again, so now she should be able to relax again and get back to studying Turkish and Danish as usual.


I don't have any backup file of my log, so my log would have been lost forever if it hadn't been in the Trash Subforum. There is a server fault and I asked the administrator to have a look into this bug next week. I am now immensely releived that my TAC log is alive again and that I can continue my language studies as usually.

Thanks to those who helped me!!!

Fasulye

Edited by Fasulye on 17 October 2009 at 3:23pm



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