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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Recht
Diglot
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 Message 665 of 3959
12 April 2009 at 11:54pm | IP Logged 
Fasulye wrote:
josht wrote:
Just to throw in my $.02, I'm from Ohio, and I've
never heard anyone say "railway station" or "railroad station." I've always
heard "train station."


What's that? I am shocked now! What are my English dictionaries worth? For me it was
natural to say "train station". But so far I could not verify that in my dictionaries
searching under "Bahnhof".

Fasulye-Babylonia


Railroad Station would certainly be understood, but if pressed an American would say
"hmmm...yes that IS a bit odd to say it that way...". Train station is much more
common. What's funnier is my Langenscheidt's has "Bahnhof" as railway station or
railroad station, with the same BE and AE distinctions you mention previously, but no
train station.
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Recht
Diglot
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 Message 666 of 3959
13 April 2009 at 12:02am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:

About wordlists. I take a sheet of paper and fold it once. For a long time I divided
the width of the paper in three parts (7+7+7 cm, if A4, less with American
Lettersize). In each column ich would write L2 L1 and L2 for each word. But I found it
difficult to keep track of my original wordlists and the separate sheets with
repetitions, and to be honest I also sometimes 'forgot' to write the repetitions. Now
I divide the width of the paper in 4 columns: 6 + 6 + 4 + 4 cm. The first two columns
are for the original word lists, the last two for the repetations. So now it is easy
to see how far I have got with the repetitions (which are absolutely essential to the
memorization process).

In each row of columns I and II I have each word as L2 L1 L2 (in two colours), and as
a part of the moethod the words are treated in groups of 5-7 word. The reason is that
memorization by simple repetetion is inefficient, - the efficient part of memorization
is to let each word 'slip away', do something else and then recall it. The immediate
recall is trained by learning the words in groups, the middle term recall is trained
by making a repetition round several hours or - better - the day after. For this I
write the clues (read 'translations') for 5-7 words and then make sure that I can
recall all the original words, - and I only write the L2's when I'm sure of that.


Just several questions and I'll be out of your hair on this one:

When you do the 2nd round, a few hours or a day later, do you just look at the middle
L1 words, write them in your 4cm column, let a few minutes go buy and then "recall"
the translation?

Also does the the 6 6 4 4 refer to the length or width of the sections? I'm not sure I
understand the significance of the difference in size of the sections. I am assuming
it is naturally length.
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Iversen
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 Message 667 of 3959
13 April 2009 at 12:10am | IP Logged 
There are 11.900.000 hits for "Train station" in Google (excluding non-English sources), so the dictionaries certainly ought to include this name. "Railway station" also gets 11.900.000, "railroad station" 980.000 hits (plus a mere 14.900 for rail road station")

Recht wrote:

When you do the 2nd round, a few hours or a day later, do you just look at the middle
L1 words, write them in your 4cm column, let a few minutes go buy and then "recall"
the translation?
Also does the the 6 6 4 4 refer to the length or width of the sections? I'm not sure I
understand the significance of the difference in size of the sections. I am assuming
it is naturally length.


WHen I do the repetition round, I copy 5-7 words from the L1 subcolumns, check that I remember the original words (if not I peek furtively at the L2 subcolumns and test again that I now remember all the words), and then I write the L1 words. So the criterion is not that you should be able to remember all the original L2's from the translations into L1, but only that you can do it after copying the translations while elaving the L2's visible. Having that extra peek is part of the learning process.

6 6 4 4 are measures in centimetres, - sorry about being Eurocentric here. As far as I remeber American Lettersize paper is marginally smaller than European A4, so in inches that would give something like 2,3 inch, 2,3 inch, 1,6 inch, 1,6 inch. However my handwriting is rather small, so maybe you can't use these measures. If you have a large handwriting then maybe you have to turn the folded sheet 90°, which just leaves two columns, one for the original L2 L1 L2, the other for the repetitiion L1 L2. Or you may leave the sheet unfolded and use really wide columns.



Edited by Iversen on 13 April 2009 at 12:25am

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Recht
Diglot
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 Message 668 of 3959
13 April 2009 at 12:31am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:


WHen I do the repetition round, I copy 5-7 words from the L1 subcolumns, check that I
remember the original words (if not I peek furtively at the L2 subcolumns and test
again that I now remember all the words), and then I write the L1 words. So the
criterion is not that you should be able to remember all the original L2's from the
translations into L1, but only that you can do it after copying the translations while
elaving the L2's visible. Having that extra peek is part of the learning process.

6 6 4 4 are measures in centimetres, - sorry about being Eurocentric here. As far as I
remeber American Lettersize paper is marginally smaller than European A4, so in inches
that would give something like 2,3 inch, 2,3 inch, 1,6 inch, 1,6 inch. However my
handwriting is rather small, so maybe you can't use these measures. If you have a
large handwriting then maybe you have to turn the folded sheet 90°, which just leaves
two columns, one for the original L2 L1 L2, the other for the repetitiion L1 L2. Or
you may leave the sheet unfolded and use really wide columns.



So I suppose you have to use a bit of gymnastics while you are looking at the L1 words
during the repetition round, lest your eyes stray a couple cm over and see the l2
word.

I usually cover it up with my hands because sometimes my eyes are too tempted! I'm
fine with cm measurements. I find them sometimes better than American inches. However,
why are the columns different sizes?

Do you use this method for verbs? Normally when I learn a verb (I only study German so
I can't speak for other languages) I learn the present, imperfect and perfect tenses.
Seems like this would be rather cumbersome to write, and might be better suited for
language software, since the morphing of the words is not always predictable.
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Iversen
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 Message 669 of 3959
13 April 2009 at 2:05am | IP Logged 
Please notice the sentence: "Having that extra peek is part of the learning process." When I'm copying the L1 words I do have the choice of reading the L2 words too. However when I'm trying to recall the L2 words after having copied the L1 words to the repetition area I cover up the whole left side of the paper with my left hand (for this reason lefthanders may want to put the wide columns to the right, - in fact I haven't thought about this problem before). Besides the choice of two different colours make it easier to concentrate of the words from either L1 or L2, excluding the other kind.

The columns are different sizes because they don't contain the same number of subcolumns: the wide columns (which form the proper wordlist) have L2 L1 L2, while the narrow columns (the repetition area) only have L1 L2.

Your last quiston is quite interesting. The answer is that it differs from language to language which features you might want to indicate. As a general rule you should NOT try to include all features of irregular words in a word list. Such words should be dealt with in sufficient detail, and you can't get that in a wordlist. Besides they are normally few in number, but very common, so you can learn each of them in isolation.

But sometimes it does pay to put a codified hint which doesn't take up much space. You mentioned German, and German has strong and weak verbs. I would personally make lists of the main forms of all the strong verbs if I had to learn them again, but this still leaves open the possibility of marking the presence of a strong verb by writing the changed vowel(s) of the preterite form and the participle (singen (a u) ---> ich singe ich sang, ich habe gesungen). In case of the verb "sein" (to be) this isn't enough, but you shouldn't write the details of this verb. There are so few really irregular verbs that you will be able to learn them all using other methods, they shouldn't spoil your wordlists.

There is another distinction which deserves even more attention: the gender of nouns. The majority of the German nouns are masculine, so it is enough to mark those that aren't, i.e. feminine and neutral nouns. I don't make many German wordlists, but when I do I always put the Venus sign ♀ (cross under a circle) where relevant, and with neutral nouns I use the sign ¤ (cross over an O). The point is that the rules for gender in German are fuzzy and often illogical, so you basically have to learn thegender of each nouns separately. And that makes gender a prime candidate for maring in German word lists. In languages where gender normally can be inferred you shouldn't mark it, except in those few cases where it CAN'T be inferred..




Edited by Iversen on 13 April 2009 at 2:09am

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Fasulye
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 Message 670 of 3959
13 April 2009 at 8:29am | IP Logged 
DIE FASULYE-VARIANTE VON IVERSENS WORTLISTEN

Das ist sehr typisch für mich! Beim Ausprobieren von Iversens Wortlist-Methode entwickele ich mir gleich eine eigene Variante. Ich erkläre mal, wie ich das machen will:

Auch ich nehme ein A4-Blatt und falte es so, dass ich zwei A5-Hälften erhalte. Ich habe eine breite Schrift, also mache ich 4 senkrechte Spalten (= Kolonnen) von je 5 cm. Da ich mit links schreibe, benenne ich die Spalten von rechts nach links L1 (bei mir Deutsch), L2 (bei mir Türkisch), L1 und L2. Wer mit rechts schreibt, muss von der linken Seite des Blattes anfangen. So erhalte ich 4 x die gleichen L1 Wörter und kann 4 x daneben die L2 Wörter schreiben (zweimal oben und zweimal unten). Wenn ich also die L 2 Wörter beim Zudecken der L1 Spalten 4 x geschrieben haben, dann beherrsche ich sie. So kann ich auf einem A4-Blatt 4 Übungsrunden der gleichen Wörter durchziehen, dabei muss ich noch ausprobieren, wieviele Wörter auf ein Viertel des Blattes passen, ich will dafür rautiertes Papier nehmen. Wenn ich wieder zu Hause bin, dann werde ich das mal mit rautiertem Papier ausprobieren. Soweit meine Konzeptentwicklung, ich muss das dann nur noch in die Praxis umsetzen.

Was haltet ihr von dieser Variante?

Fasulye-Babylonia

Edited by Fasulye on 13 April 2009 at 8:34am

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Iversen
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 Message 671 of 3959
13 April 2009 at 9:28am | IP Logged 
Also so wie hier (zuerst alles was Deutsch ist, danach alles was Türkisch ist):


Deutsch 1 | Türkisch 1 | Deutsch 1 | Türkisch 1
Deutsch 2 | Türkisch 2 | Deutsch 2 | Türkisch 2
Deutsch 3 | Türkisch 3 | Deutsch 3 | Türkisch 3
Deutsch 4 | Türkisch 4 | Deutsch 4 | Türkisch 4
..........
..........
Deutsch 1 | Türkisch 1 | Deutsch 1 | Türkisch 1
Deutsch 2 | Türkisch 2 | Deutsch 2 | Türkisch 2
Deutsch 3 | Türkisch 3 | Deutsch 3 | Türkisch 3
Deutsch 4 | Türkisch 4 | Deutsch 4 | Türkisch 4
..........
..........


Meine Methode, für Großschreiber modifiziert (2 Spalten mit Subspalten statt 4 Spalten mit Subspalten), würde so wie unten aussehen - Wortliste links, Repetition rechts, zuerst Block 1 (hier die Türkische Wörter 1-5, dann die Deutschen, dann wiederum die Türkischen). Dann Block 2 auf dieselbe Weise und so weiter. Die Methoden sind also ganz verschieden - auch in der Zeitfolge:

(Tag 1) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (Tag 2)
Türkisch 1 Deutsch 1 Türkisch 1 | Deutsch 1 Türkisch 1
Türkisch 2 Deutsch 2 Türkisch 2 | Deutsch 2 Türkisch 2
Türkisch 3 Deutsch 3 Türkisch 3 | Deutsch 3 Türkisch 3
Türkisch 4 Deutsch 4 Türkisch 4 | Deutsch 4 Türkisch 4
Türkisch 5 Deutsch 5 Türkisch 5 | Deutsch 5 Türkisch 5

Türkisch 6 Deutsch 6 Türkisch 6 | Deutsch 6 Türkisch 6
Türkisch 7 Deutsch 7 Türkisch 7 | Deutsch 7 Türkisch 7
......
...


--------------

Above Fasulye's method, below mine (adapted for people with large handwriting, i.e. only 2 columns with subcolumns instead of the usual 4 across the paper)


I have added this version of my own method to my profile thread for later reference.


Edited by Iversen on 13 April 2009 at 10:39am

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Fasulye
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 Message 672 of 3959
13 April 2009 at 9:46am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
Also so wie hier (zuerst alles was Deutsch ist, danach alles was Türkisch ist):


Deutsch 1 | Türkisch 1 | Deutsch 1 | Türkisch 1
Deutsch 2 | Türkisch 2 | Deutsch 2 | Türkisch 2
Deutsch 3 | Türkisch 3 | Deutsch 3 | Türkisch 3
Deutsch 4 | Türkisch 4 | Deutsch 4 | Türkisch 4
..........
..........
Deutsch 1 | Türkisch 1 | Deutsch 1 | Türkisch 1
Deutsch 2 | Türkisch 2 | Deutsch 2 | Türkisch 2
Deutsch 3 | Türkisch 3 | Deutsch 3 | Türkisch 3
Deutsch 4 | Türkisch 4 | Deutsch 4 | Türkisch 4
..........
..........




Auf einer A4-Seite von rechts nach links:

Deutsch (L1) - Türkisch (L2), Deutsch (L1) - Türkisch (L2) (= obere Blattseite)
Deutsch (L1) - Türkisch (L2), Deutsch (L1) - Türkisch (L2) (= untere Blattseite)

Ich lerne sowieso Vokabeln immer von der Sprache L1 (die nicht immer die Elternsprache zu sein braucht) nach L2, nie umgekehrt. Also habe ich auf einer A4-Seite 3 schriftliche Übungsdurchgänge, das wird nach meiner Erfahrung ausreichen, um die Vokablen zu beherrschen. Der erste Durchgang L1 - L2 wird dazu dienen, die Wörter abzuschreiben und sich gründlich anzuschauen, bleiben die anderen drei Durchgänge zur Einübung.

Praktisch kann ich das hier noch nicht durchführen, denn mein Vater hat hier kein rautiertes oder kariertes Papier liegen. Heute Abend werde ich wieder zu Hause in meiner Stadt sein.

Fasulye-Babylonia

PS: Iversen, du gehst immer von L2 aus. Ich gehe von L1 aus, weil ich L2 generieren will. Eigentlich ist meine Übungs-Wortlisten-Variante ein Trainingsblatt. Was ich noch nicht weiß, ist wieviele Wörter auf ein 1/4 des A4-Blatts passen. Das will ich genormt haben, sodass auf jedes A4-Blatt gleich viele Wörter kommen. So kann ich dann auch ganz einfach meinen Wortschatz berechnen, denn in meinem nächsten Türkischbuch nach "Güle Güle" stehen keine Wortlisten hinten im Buch. Bei Türkisch will ich im Verlauf meines Lernprozesses den Wortschatz quantifizieren, soetwas habe ich bisher noch nicht bei anderen Sprachen gemacht.

Edited by Fasulye on 13 April 2009 at 10:27am



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