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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Fasulye
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 Message 1489 of 3959
12 November 2009 at 9:45pm | IP Logged 
NL: Ik ben lang niet meer bij jouw in de log actief geweest. Het ging allemaal over klassieke muziek, daar weet ik niets van af en kan er zodoende niets over schrijven.

Ik heb me twee dagen met het Spaans beziggehouden: De audio's van mijn Vera F. Birkenbihl cursus beluisterd en gelijktijdig de hyperliteral translations (Spaans-Duits) gelezen, dat is typisch voor de Birkenbihl-methode. Verder in het tijdschrift "ECOS" wat Spaanse oefeningen gedaan en met het boek "Rätsel und Übungen Spanisch" gewerkt van Hueber-Verlag.

Ook heb ik nog veel aan Turks gedaan, vandaag een grote woordenschat-herhaling gedaan voor het Turks...

En met grote belangstelling naar de You Tube videos van Glossika gekeken, daar heb ik toch wel wat nieuws van opgestoken. Het begrip "triangulation" kende ik niet, wel was mij bekend dat men met behulp van bekende talen verdere talen kan leren, al maak ik daar zelf niet zo zeer gebruik van. Ik kende de taalgroup van het Turks niet (Altaic languages), dat is natuurlijk zeer berlangrijk voor mij dat Glossika dit uitlegt.

Ook heb in deze dagen heel wat oude taal-leerboeken weggegooid, waarvan ik vind dat ik daarmee in de toekomst niet meer zal werken. Mijn boekenkasten zitten helemaal vol en ik moest plaats vrijmaken voor nieuw materiaal dat ik voor het talenleren wilde aanschaffen. De taalboeken, die ik hier nu heb staan, heb ik of regelmatig in gebruik of ik ben van plan om ze in de toekomst (weer) intezetten.

Maar nu heb ik genoeg van deze interessante en nuttige dingen gedaan, dus sta ik weer bereid voor de volgende les Deens...

Als het de volgende 10 jaar goed gaat met mijn Turks en Deens en als ik met deze talen een bevredigend nivo kan bereiken, zou ik me nog kunnen voorstellen om ook nog Portugees en Zweeds te leren, maar dat hangt ervan af, hoe succesvol het leren van die twee talen verloopt.

Fasulye

Edited by Fasulye on 12 November 2009 at 9:57pm

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Iversen
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 Message 1490 of 3959
12 November 2009 at 11:44pm | IP Logged 
DU: Fasulye heeft Glossika z'n expressie 'triangulatie' niet gekend, en ik ook niet. Maar de werkelijkheid achter de term is bekend: de mens gebruikt in principe al haar oude talen om nieuwe talen te leren. Ik schreef onlangs in een andere diskussie dat het Engels en Duits samen zijn een goed uitgangspunt om andere Germaanse talen te leren, zoals Nederlands en de Scandinavische talen. Voor bijvoorbeeld_ de Nederlandse woordenschat is goed vergelijkbaar met de Duitse woordenschat, terwijl de morfologie eerder het Engelse lijkt. Er is toch grote variatie in hoe de mensen zijn voorkennisse gebruiken: ik gebruik ze bewust, terwijl Fasulye liever de talen van de grond af leert. Maar het aardoppervlak is hoger om zo te zeggen, als je kan staan op een hoop reeds bekende talen.

FR: J'ai fini mon livre sur le Géorgien. Dans les derniers chapîtres on a expliqué des sujets moins hermétiques que celui de la morphologie des verbes (je suppose qu'il faut aborder des langues indigènes américaines comme par example Navajo pour trouver quelque chose de plus compliquée). Les derniers chapîtres ont surtout présenté la vocabulaire pratique pour un touriste ou visiteur (comme dans quelconque autre guide de langue), mais aussi des conseils généraux sur l'art d'écrire des lettres ou téléphoner. Après ceci il y a un petit dictionnaire bidirectionnel, mais j'en aurais pu me passer puisque j'ai déjà acheté un dictionaire géorgien à Tbilisi en 2000 - comme souvenir (à l'époque les languages ne m'intéressaient pas tellement).

Ce soir j'ai vu à TF2 une émission où on a rencontré des personnes qui ont du accepter des emplois décidément inférieurs et mal payés: 'pompiste' à une station de gaz d'un supermarché, vendeur de journaux dans une gare, garde d'un parking municipal ou "régulateur de flux" dans le métro parisien. On touche seulement entre 700 et 1000 euros par mois pour ces boulots dures et précaires.

GR: Και εκτός αυτού, έχω διαβάσει κάποια άρθρα στην σελίδα www.sciencedaily.gr, δηλ.στην ιστοσελίδα του περιοδικού επιστήμης, με την οποία είμαι ασχολούνται με το παρόν. Αναφέρει, μεταξύ άλλων, ότι κινέζοι επιστήμονες έχουν δημιουργήσει ένα τεχνητό μαύρη τρύπα (και η γη δεν πουφ και εξαφανίστηκε). και "ο Μεγάλος Επιταχυντής Αδρονίων (LHC) του CERN ετοιμάζεται να επαναλειτουργήσει μετά την βλάβη που υπέστει πριν από ένα περίπου χρόνο". Φυσικά μπορούν, επίσης ήσυχο τώρα ότι οι Κινέζοι έχουν δείξει ότι οι μαύρες τρύπες δεν τρώνε αναγκαστικά το σύνολο της Γης σε μια μπουκιά.

----------

Fasulye didn't know Glossika's expression 'triangulation' (from one of his Youtube videos), and neither did I. But the reality behind is wellknown: when you learn a new language it is not just a matter that concerns your native language and the new target language - every language you know can help you. I recently wrote in another thread that English PLUS German is a good basis for understanding Dutch and gthe Nordic languages - the elements you don't find in one of them you probably will find in the other.

I have finished my Georgien textbook ("Parlons Géorgien"), The last chapters are a breeze compared to those that describe the verbs - they contain the wellknown practical vocabularies that a tourist or visitor might need, plus some useful remarks about phone and letter writing.

This evening I have watched a French TV program about people in decidedly menial jobs, which tend to pop up again in these crisis times: servant at a gaz station (there is a name for it, but I have forgotten what it is), guardian at a municipal parking lot, newspaper vendor at a railway station, information personnel at the Parisian metro - you name it. Hard, boring, despised jobs with a minimal salary.

And finally I have read some articles at the homepage of the Greek science magazine "Science today" - i.e. the one I use for my regular intensive reading sessions. FOr instance about some Chinese scientists who have managed to produce the first sizeable artificial black hole. And the Earth didn't disappear. Soon the mighty CERN accelerator that has been closed down for almost a year will be active again, but this time we are confident that the Earth won't be swallowed in one big gulp by a black hole, thanks to the Chinese. The proof is in the pudding - we are still here.


Edited by Iversen on 13 November 2009 at 12:07pm

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Hobbema
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 Message 1491 of 3959
15 November 2009 at 3:38am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:

This evening I have watched a French TV program about people in decidedly menial jobs, which tend to pop up again in these crisis times: servant at a gaz station (there is a name for it, but I have forgotten what it is), guardian at a municipal parking lot, newspaper vendor at a railway station, information personnel at the Parisian metro - you name it. Hard, boring, despised jobs with a minimal salary.

And finally I have read some articles at the homepage of the Greek science magazine "Science today" - i.e. the one I use for my regular intensive reading sessions. FOr instance about some Chinese scientists who have managed to produce the first sizeable artificial black hole. And the Earth didn't disappear. Soon the mighty CERN accelerator that has been closed down for almost a year will be active again, but this time we are confident that the Earth won't be swallowed in one big gulp by a black hole, thanks to the Chinese. The proof is in the pudding - we are still here.


Ayn Rand wrote a novel called "Atlas Shrugged". As literature it's not really highly regarded, but it's an idea novel and as that it's a good one. For right or for wrong, i's experiencing a revival here in the U.S., mostly due to the transition from the Bush to the Obama presidential administrations.

Anyway, one of the memorable things I remember from reading that book is that those who are the competents, who are the "movers and shakers" of the world, when they go on strike and cause a collapse of the economy, they do so by withdrawing their contributions to industry and by taking on menial jobs, such as short order cook in a diner. And while they take on menial work, they do so at the same time performing the jobs with excellence.

So I sometimes think what kind of world would we have if everybody approached their jobs with passion, even if it was (what we might call) menial work. I think of the people I work with, and how I'd like to fire the lot of them, and replace them with people that actually cared about the product they produced.

There it is, if I were the King of Everyone, our lives would be so much better!


Edited by Hobbema on 15 November 2009 at 3:39am

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Iversen
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 Message 1492 of 3959
16 November 2009 at 4:08am | IP Logged 
If your job is to put the goods that people buy in supermarkets into plastic bags then you are making it easier for the customer and maybe you are making queues move faster, but your salary won't be anything to write home about. It must be difficult to be happy about that, when you at the same time can see white collar administrators who basically just make the wheels turn slower get several times your own salary. Not to speak of CEOs who run down their comparnies and get away with millions. My guess is that the movers and shakers prefer giving up moving and shaking if the alternative is to move and shake within the narrow limits of a menial worker's job.

I have returned late from a family visit, so I'll not write much right now.

FR: Samedi j'ai vu un programme en français sur la TV de ma mère: elle peut voir Arte en allemand et en français, mais elle comprends l'allemand beaucoup mieux que le français. ette fois-ci elle a pourtant préféré la version française - comprenne qui peut, mais je ne me suis pas plaint. On a décrit le royauame des choses vivvantes, non comme l'arbre qu'on normalement voit, mais plutôt comme un éponge concentrique. Au centre on a le 'Luca': le "Last Universal Common Ancestor" de tous les êtres vivants: les eucaryotes (ceux avec un nucleus dans leurs cellules - plantes, animaux et certains organismes unicellulaires), les procaryotes (les être unicellulaires sans nucléus) - mais aussi le archaeotes, c.a.d. les organismes extrêmement primitives, mais aussi extrëmement robustes qui peuvent survivre non pas sur, mais DANS les pierres ou dans les sources chaudes d'origine volcanique. Mais juste comme nous les archaiotes sont placés sur le périmètre du structure circulaire parce qu'ils ont survécu 3.500.000.000 années depuis l'émergence de la vie sur ce planète. Au début on pense que LUCA n'était qu'un parmi plusieurs type de vies (avec d'autres type the précurseurs de RNA/DNA, peut-être avec d'autres acides aminos que les quatre canoniques). Ce qui m´etonne c'est qu'on n'a apparamment pas pu trouver des survivants des autres organismes qui auraient été présents dans les mêmes eaux que le Luca.

DA: For øvrigt har jeg læst i den danske udgave af "Videnskabens Verden", at kinesiske forskere nu har fundet den første fjerklædte dino fra undergruppen Ornithischia, - hidtil har alle fjerklædte dinoer tilhørt den anden store undergruppe, Saurischia , fra hvilken fuglene udviklede sig. Det nye fund kunne antyde at fjer opstod meget tidligere end ellers antaget - de første dinosaurer opstod i sen Trias for ca. 230 millioner år siden.

GER: Ich habe im Zeitschrift auch gelesen das man eine 35.000 Jahren alte Flöte in Deutschland gefunden hat, - das älteste Musikinstrument überhaupt, aber zweifelsohne für Musik gemacht - es gab 5 tonlöcher drin. Das Knochen is 22 cm lang und ist von einem Gänsegeier genommen. Wenn Homo Sapiens bereits damals Musik spielen konnte (und Höhlenkunst schaffen konnte), ist es natürlich auch Mythen und andere kulturelle Erscheinungen zu vermuten, - und dazu natürlich auch noch Sprachen wie die unseren. Es wird heute vermutet daß die Neanderthaler auch sprechen konnte, aber außer einige Grabaustattungen (Okker, eine Schwanenflügel) scheint nichts daruf hin, das sie kunstlerisch begabt waren. Und diese fehlende Kreativität hat vermutlich dazu beigetragen, daß sie ausstarb.

--------

I watched a Program in French Saturday about the evolution of all life. All living species were depicted on a sphere with the present species at the surface and Luca in the middle. Who is Luca? OK, Luca is the "Last Universal Common Ancestor" of all life, including Euchariots with and Procaryots without cell nuclei, - but also the recently discovered Archaeia, which are exceedingly hardy monocellular small things that live in strange places, such as inside Antarctic rocks and in the boiling lakes in places like Yellowstone. Luca must have existed around 3½ billion years ago, but presumable there must have been other kinds of organisms, which however must have disappeared without a trace. And by now it is probably too late to find out why and when this happened.

Just before returning home by train I read the Danish science magazine "Videnskabens Verden" (I bought the Swedish version earlier this year in Malmö, and in Reykjavik I bought "Lífandi visindi" from the same 'family'). Among the articles there was one about the first ever find of a feathered dinosaur from the suborder Ornithischia, - until now (i.e. from around 1990 to now) all specimens belonged to the other big group the Saurischia, which also comprises the birds. If the new discovery is correctly interpreted it means that feathers must have been present from before the separation of these two groups, and that happened already in Perm. The first dinosaurs evolved around 230 mio. years ago, and the split occurred not too long after.

The same magazine also told about the find in Germany of a flute with five tone holes. It is around 22 cm long and made from a split bone from a 'lammergeier'or 'bearded vulture', Gypaetus barbatus. Add to this the amazing cave paintings from Southern France and the Iberian Peninsula, and you have the picture of cultural human being who certainly also must have had myths and a well developed language. From the Neanderthals we do have a few caves with ochre and (in one case) a swan ving. But the Neanderthals were clearly not as culturally minded as Homo sapiens. And they died out, not our ancestors. So apparently culture is good for you.


Edited by Iversen on 30 November 2009 at 12:42pm

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Hobbema
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 Message 1493 of 3959
16 November 2009 at 7:47am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
If your job is to put the goods that people buy in supermarkets into plastic bags then you are making it easier for the customer and maybe you are making queues move faster, but your salary won't be anything to write home about. It must be difficult to be happy about that, when you at the same time can see white collar administrators who basically just make the wheels turn slower get several times your own salary. Not to speak of CEOs who run down their comparnies and get away with millions. My guess is that the movers and shakers prefer giving up moving and shaking if the alternative is to move and shake within the narrow limits of a menial worker's job.

I have returned late from a family visit, so I'll not write much right now.


ENG: We are speaking of the same things! But our emphases are different.

NED: We hebben veel CEOs hier in Amerika. Ze velen van zijn slimme mensen die veel dingen bereikt. Maar sommige van hen zijn idioten, kapiteins van bedrijven die gedoemd zijn te mislukken. Deze mensen werken voor zichzelf.   Ze doen niets, ze produceren niets. Maar, ze wonen in huizen groter dan mijne.

POR: Eu quero para pensar, são essas pessoas vale mais, porque eles têm milhões? Ou nos queremos um ano em que a pena de uma pessoa é valorizada pela qualidade do serviço deles, e não por preços de ações?

ENG: I hope the questions in my target languages were clear! And I hope you enjoyed the visit with your family.

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Fasulye
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 Message 1494 of 3959
16 November 2009 at 10:31am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
DA: FOr øvrigt har jeg læst i den danske udgave af "Videnskabens Verden", at kinesiske forskere nu har fundet den første fjerklædte dino fra undergruppen Ornithischia, - hidtil har alle fjerklædte dinoer tilhørt den anden store undergruppe, Saurischia , fra hvilken fuglene udviklede sig. Det nye fund kunne antyde at fjer opstod meget tidligere end ellers antaget - de første dinosaurier opstod i sen Trias for ca. 230 millioner år siden.


for övrigt = übrigens, overigens
en forsker = ein Forscher, een wetenschappelijk onderzoeker
en fjer = eine Feder, een veer
hidtil = bisher, bis jetzt, tot nu toe
hvilken = welcher, welche
udvikle sig = sich entwicklen, zich ontwikkelen
meget = viel, veel (Dit woord vergeet ik steeds weer!!!)
tidlig = früh, vroeg
antage = annehmen, vermuten, halten für
siden = seit, sinds

Ik moet nog steeds kleine woorden opzoeken, dat zal na de eerste 10 lessen Deens wel ophouden. Het omgaan met werkwoordsvormen is natuurlijk nog moeilijk voor mij, omdat ik de konjugaties in de andere tijden nog niet geleerd heb.

Fasulye



Edited by Fasulye on 16 November 2009 at 10:36am

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Iversen
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 Message 1495 of 3959
16 November 2009 at 1:56pm | IP Logged 
DA: For øvrigt har jeg læst i den danske udgave af "Videnskabens Verden",
For-others have I read in the Danish out-gift (=edition) of "ScienceTheIts World"

at kinesiske forskere nu har fundet den første fjerklædte dino fra undergruppen Ornithischia,
that Chinese (re)searchers now have found the first feather-clad dinosaur from subgroupThe Ornithischia,

- hidtil har alle fjerklædte dinoer tilhørt den anden store undergruppe, Saurischia ,
- here_till have all featherclad dinosaurs belonged(-to) the other big subgroup, Saurischia

fra hvilken fuglene udviklede sig.
from which birdsThe developed self.

Det nye fund kunne antyde at fjer opstod meget tidligere end ellers antaget
The new find could suggest that feathers up-stood (=appeared) much earlier than otherwise assumed

- de første dinosaurer opstod i sen Trias for ca. 230 millioner år siden.
- the first dinosaurs up-stood in late Triassic for ca. 230 millions years ago.

More about Tianyulong confuciusi:
Live Science

And please notice the species name of this new critter: confuciusi ... with a reference to the old philosopher whose name has not always been politically correct in mainland China.

----------

I have one addition to the story about the old flute: Homo sapiens apparently existed at least 200.000 years ago. But for the first 150.000 years nothing much happened culture-wise: no flutes, no paintings, no nothing - not even American football. Something more must have happened that kicked off the "movers and shakers" part of evolution. Maybe a mutation for nerdlike creativity that can't be seen in the bones? Maybe something like the Toba volcano to kill off all the fools, leaving only the most intelligent and ressourceful? (us!)

----------

PORT: A igualdade é um slogan que não tem chance no mundo real. Alguma correlação entre o que você fornecer à sociedade e aquilo que você ganha é provavelmente saudável. Podemos discutir se o que um CEO faz na verdade vale mais do que fazem dez segretarios, más no caso que CEO'en através de a suas disposições frívolas destroze a economia de uma empresa ou roube de seus clientes, a regra inversa deveria aplica-se - que a pessoa pague uma indemnização em vez de obter um bônus generoso. Mas o mundo é um paraíso para os ricos e gananciosos, e provavelmente não podemos mudar nada.

Edited by Iversen on 17 November 2009 at 3:29am

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Iversen
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 Message 1496 of 3959
17 November 2009 at 11:46pm | IP Logged 
I have been wasting my time writing in a thread about foreign city names - should they be adapted to your native language or pronounced more or less as the original name? I'm still somewhat baffled by the strong feelings that it apparently evokes when a foreign city name is used in its original form instead of an adapted form. But now to something completely different.

I have reread an article about fads in language learning, written by W.Decoo. The tale begins in the 1860s with some language professors who attacked the traditional grammar- and translation orientated teaching methods. No no, now the direct method should be tried. The motives were humanistic and well-meant, but the results didn't match the expectations. So after 1910 a more eclectic philosophy became the predominant one. Grammar and translation were reintroduced, together with the 'reading method', quote "intensive reading of graded readers". Then behaviourism and the 2. worldwar came, and methods based on endless drills became predominant. And from the late 1950s the audio-lingual method was introduced, based on the availability of language labs and an ideology that completely excluded translation and grammar. But it was soon ditched and language teaching based on communicative strategies became the politically correct choice. And since the mid 90s grammar and translations slowly creep back into the palette of preferred methods, because some people realized that these things actually served a purpose.

The whole thing is slightly hilarious. I have of course formulated my own credo in my Guides to language learning, and I can see that my own little revolt against the purely 'natural' and communicative strategies fits the general pattern, - according to Decoo's description. However I don't see that these strategies have been discredited as much as he writes, I rather see a mixed situation where several tendencies compete. Ultimately the ideal situation is one where everyone can try out a number of different strategies, and for me the really new thing is a factor which Decoo doesn't value too highly, namely the emergence of the internet, which makes access to genuine materials easier than ever. For home learners this is excellent news.

IC: En auðvitað hafði ég líka tíma í dag til að lesa svolitið. I fyrradag las ég danska vísindi tímaritinu sem kallast "Videnskabens Verden". Í dag las ég vefsíðun á íslensku tímaritið "Lifandi Vísindi". Ég sá fyrst blaðið á ferð minni til Reykjavíkur fyrr á þessu ári, og það var ekki sérstaklega erfitt að lesa. .Í allir atburður, ekki þegar þú hefur nótað umtalsvert magn af tíma um að læra tungumálið uppi þar (án þess að það tókst fullkomlega). Ég íhuga jafnvel áskrift að henni, en burðargjald vildi sennilega vera dýrkeypt. A vefsíðunni hef ég meðal annars lesið, að rannsóknir sýna að innkaupa- og spilafíkn virkja eins og amfetamíni á heilunni. Um þenn grun hef ég rennað í langan tíma! Og kannski mikla rannsóknir tungumál hafa sömu áhrif á verðlaunustoðen heilans?

----

But of course I did find time to read a little bit today. Sunday I read the Danish science magazine "Illustreret Videnskab", and today I read a few articles at the homepage of "Lifandi Visindi", which is a counterpart to the Danish magazine (which also has a Swedish version and maybe also a connection to the site "living Science". Among other things I read that shopaholics and gamblers show brain activity that ressembles that of Amphetamine addicts. Somehow I am not too surprised. Maybe extreme language learning also has those effects in the brain.

Edited by Iversen on 19 November 2009 at 10:09am



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