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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 3121 of 3959
07 December 2012 at 10:14am | IP Logged 
Eg har lest Dagsavisa si hjemside og ikkje funne noe. Mit beste tipp er nå blogger og Facebook-sider skreve på nynorsk. Eg trenger òg snart lesa noko ramsalta kompromisslaust Dovregubba-norsk - stavninga min har det ikkje gott.

Funn frå www.strilen.no:

Fleirbrukshall på Fedje er tilrådd mot Vilgerd Storset Husa si røyst i formannskapet. Ordføraren håpar hallen kan opnast i august 2007.

Steinmassar frå BKK si utviding av kraftstasjonen på Matre er tenkt brukt til vegfyllinga.

NB: etterstilt possesivpronomen er vanleg på nynorsk, ikkje på bokmål:

Men det viktigsta for oss er at vegen ikke svingar ned forbi byggefeltet vårt, sik det har vore antyda, seier Oppedal.

English (quasi)summary: if you want to see the garpe-genitive in Norwegian then go for Nynorsk - there you also find postpositioned possessive pronouns galore, and I cannot but think that these help to keep the garpe-thing alive. Obviously Nynorsk is a standard for the written language, and behind it we find a wide array of dialects. In principle people who speak some dialect with garpe-genitives should use them in their bokmål too, since most Norwegians write in bokmål, but maybe those who choose to write in nynorsk also are the cranky ones who keep garping. I'll leave it to the native Norwegians to judge whether its use is restricted to certain dialects or certain personality types.

Edited by Iversen on 09 December 2012 at 1:18am

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Iversen
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 Message 3122 of 3959
08 December 2012 at 10:46pm | IP Logged 
As you probably know by now, Benny 'The Irish Polyglot' has published a video where 17 polyglots take turns to praise the virtues of skyping in 32 languages (including a whole choir of couch surfers acting in some kind of sign language alongside the last verse, which is performed in Gaeilge and Béarla by the maestro himself).

I have also a minor part in this project (sharing a spoken passage in Greek and Latin with Sprachprofi). Benny sent me his full English text and a 'karaoke' version of the song (without a singer). I looked at the verses which hadn't been taken already and decided to translate 4 lines into Greek and Latin, and of course I had to aacept a few compromises in order to make the content fit the available verse feet. The English version looked like this:

Hey, don’t be shy man,
You gotta practice your language,
Time with people is the answer,
So Skype us, maybe?

(in Carly R J's version - which I could download as text from the internet - that would correspond to the verse

Hey, I just met you,
And this is crazy,
But here's my number,
So call me, maybe?)

It is pretty clear that something had to go, and essentially it was the words "is the answer" ("responsum est" in Latin), so I ended up with:

Δεν εισ' άτολμος,   
Θα πρέπει πράξη
Tempusque vobiscum,
Eo nobis skaepe.

which roughly means

You aren't shy,   (better: Μην να εισαι άτολμος 'don't be shy' - but there was not room for that)
practice will be necessary
and time with all of you,
so skype to us.

So far so good. I listened to the the rhythm and said my lines (I never sing), and then Benny wrought them into his multilingual tour de force. I actually discovered that it has been published when I checked my e-mail for the first time in three days and saw a number of subscriptions to my Youtube channel (which I have left alone since the ill-fated videos about my paintings). But then I found out about the song, and then I understood.

Benny invited people to send translations, and I thought it might be mighty good translation training, so I converted the whole thing into Danish while listening to Anton Bruckner's 0., 1. and 2. symphonies. Those who know the length of Bruckner's symphonies will now know that this process took quite some time. The problem was that just like me the other contributors hadn't been able to stick to the original English text so I had to compile a whole new version based on the subtitles. And of course I can't write all those weird Asian alphabeths and ideogrammes, and of course there were a few languages I couldn't understand - not even with the dubious assistance of Google translate. If this translation ever gets on Youtube there won't be any visible separation between the parts I could translate from the original and those where I had to trust the English subtitles, so it comes without any guarantees. Besides there were of course passages that were ambiguous or otherwise difficult to translate.

Actually Miss Jepsen's admonition "so call me maybe" is one of those problem lines. No Dane would use "måske" to convey the intended meaning - you wouldn't want to raise doubts in that situation - but instead use something like the formulation "så ta' og ring til mig" (for those who study Danish this could be nicely written as "så tag at ringe til mig") or more politely "vil du ikke ta og ringe mig op?". But to keep close to the original I ended up with "Så måske ku' du skype til mig.." for Benny's last line and "så skype til mig" in the translation of "eo nobis skaepe". Btw. in Classical Latin 'ae' is pronounced like the 'y' in Skype so I permitted myself a discrete orthographic innovation there - the letter 'y' in a Latin word would suggest a loanword from Greek.


Edited by Iversen on 13 December 2012 at 5:03am

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daegga
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 Message 3123 of 3959
08 December 2012 at 11:32pm | IP Logged 
Quote:
(...) NB: etterstilt possesivpronomen er vanleg på nynorsk, ikkje på bokmål: (...)


Er ikke etterstilt possessivpronomen også vanlig på bokmål? Jeg har lært at man bare plasserer den foran hvis man bruker den påpekende. Men iallfall har jeg sett possessivpronomener brukt både foran og etter substantivet i bokmål.

Edited by daegga on 08 December 2012 at 11:33pm

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tractor
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 Message 3124 of 3959
09 December 2012 at 12:24am | IP Logged 
Jo, etterstilt eiendomspronomen er vanlig på bokmål òg. I mer tradisjonelt riksmål er det dog ikke så vanlig.

Garpegenitiv er utbredt i svært mange dialekter, men mange ser på det som uelegant og dårlig norsk både på
bokmål og nynorsk.
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Iversen
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 Message 3125 of 3959
09 December 2012 at 12:34am | IP Logged 
Eg har bemerket att det er størst konsentrasjon av efterstilte possessiver på nynorsk, men de fleiste norske tekst er ju skrevne på bokmål, så numerisk har du truleg set mye fleira etterstilte possesiver i bokmåltekst enn i nynorske tekst.

Ei eksperiment via Google (etterstilt possessiv og garpegenitiv):

"Husa hans" "Norge": 17.900
"Huset hans" "Norge": 91.000
"Hans hus" "Norge": 90.400

"Husa hans" "Noreg": 39
"Huset hans" "Noreg": 7.170
"Hans hus" "Noreg": 1.200


Eg skulle vel ha skreva "men ikkje helt så vanleg på bokmål".

Edited by Iversen on 09 December 2012 at 1:08am

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Fasulye
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 Message 3126 of 3959
09 December 2012 at 9:50am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
So far so good. I listened to the the rhythm and said my lines (I never sing), and then Benny wrought them into his multilingual tour de force. I actually discovered that it has been published when I checked my e-mail for the first time in three days and saw a number of subscriptions to my Youtube channel (which I have left alone since the ill-fated videos about my paintings). But then I found out about the song, and then I understood.

Benny invited people to send translations, and I thought it might be mighty good translation training, so I converted the whole thing into Danish while listening to Anton Bruckner's 0., 1. and 2. symphonies. Those who know the length of Bruckner's symphonies will now know that this process took quite some time. The problem was that just like me the other contributors hadn't been able to stick to the original English text so I had to compile a whole new version based on the subtitles. And of course I can't write all those weird Asian alphabeths and ideogrammes, and of course there were a few languages I couldn't understand - not even with the dubious assistance of Google translate. If this translation ever gets on Youtube there won't be any visible separation between the parts I could translate from the original and those where I had to trust the English subtitles, so it comes without any guarantees. Besides there were of course passages that were ambiguous or otherwise difficult to translate.



This is interesting read for me as a fellow participant of the "Skype Me Maybe" video. Nothing wrong with you speaking the verses as there are other participants who don't sing them. In contrast I am a person who always likes to sing but in this case I only got the instrumental version of song (the original version is blocked by GEMA in Germany on You Tube) and it couldn't make up any clear melody from it. And I must confess that I would still not feel able to sing it now (after having listened to Benny's "Skype me Maybe" video for many, many times). So I chose to perform a rap version of the song. (My reading version of the verse was rejected by Benny because it was too slow for the music).

I would like to have your Danish translation officially as subttitles of Benny's video, so that I could read them like I like to read the Esperanto - subtitles of the video. I will send you the English version written by Benny and Susanna by e-mail, so that you can check it with the Danish translation which you have already made. But please send your best Danish translation in to Benny, that he can install it officially as Danish subtitles.

Fasulye

Edited by Fasulye on 09 December 2012 at 9:53am

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Brun Ugle
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 Message 3127 of 3959
09 December 2012 at 10:53am | IP Logged 
Solfrid Cristin wrote:


As for garpegenetiv in bokmål I do not agree with the Wikipedia in Nynorsk saying that it is so common in
Bokmål. I was corrected if I ever used that form, and I would correct my children had they ever used that
form. I very rarely hear an educated adult use it. I would hear it from a child or an adult who was keen on
stressing his working class background or political views. It is not wrong to use it, but it is one of the very
many tiny markers in Norwegian who tell people about you education level or political views.



Oopsy. Uneducated?! I wasn't aware of that. I guess I'm just letting my trøndersk/namdalsk background hang out. I have toned things down a lot dialect-wise after I moved away from Namdal though, so maybe I sound at least a little bit educated now.
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tractor
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 Message 3128 of 3959
09 December 2012 at 12:12pm | IP Logged 
Brun Ugle wrote:
Solfrid Cristin wrote:


As for garpegenetiv in bokmål I do not agree with the Wikipedia in Nynorsk saying that it is so common in
Bokmål. I was corrected if I ever used that form, and I would correct my children had they ever used that
form. I very rarely hear an educated adult use it. I would hear it from a child or an adult who was keen on
stressing his working class background or political views. It is not wrong to use it, but it is one of the very
many tiny markers in Norwegian who tell people about you education level or political views.



Oopsy. Uneducated?! I wasn't aware of that. I guess I'm just letting my trøndersk/namdalsk background hang out.
I have toned things down a lot dialect-wise after I moved away from Namdal though, so maybe I sound at least a
little bit educated now.

If you speak Trøndersk, it's probably safe to use "garpegenitiv". At least in Nordnorsk it doesn't have any of that
working-class, uneducated stigma, and I guess it's exactly the same in Trøndersk. In formal writing, Bokmål or
Nynorsk, it is best to avoid it though.


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