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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Serpent
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 Message 3921 of 3959
17 July 2015 at 1:19pm | IP Logged 
and now it says Updated on 2015-07-17
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tastyonions
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 Message 3922 of 3959
17 July 2015 at 3:58pm | IP Logged 
Merci de m'avoir appris un nouveau mot, "vétuste."
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 Message 3923 of 3959
02 August 2015 at 9:45am | IP Logged 
Mi sekvis la Universalan Kongreson en Lille pere de Facebook, cxar miaj nederlandaj
geamikoj cxeestis tie kaj ankaux unu alia "Facebook amiko" de mi, kiuj vigle postis
fotojn de eventoj sur la kongreso. Mi scivolas, kion vi spertis dum la kongreso kaj
kielmaniere vi povis uzi Esperanton tie.

Fasulye

Edited by Fasulye on 02 August 2015 at 9:47am

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Iversen
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 Message 3924 of 3959
09 August 2015 at 1:21am | IP Logged 
I have just finished a long post about the kongress itself at the not-HTLAL forum, and I'm not going to repeat the whole thing here. But I'll just comment on a few general things concerning the congress, and then proceed to some remarks about my activities in Belgium.

EO: Unu evento kiel la 100a universala kongreso en Lillo estas grandega afero - ĝi havis cirkaŭ 2.500 partoprenantojn, kaj oni atendus ke tia estus bona okazio por paroli kun aliaj esperantistoj. Tamen fakte mi havis pli longajn kunparoladojn dum la kunveno en Berlino - eĉ en Esperanto, kvankam mi Esperanto tiam estis tre 'rusta' pro malaktiveco. Sed poliglotaj kunvenoj ne estas bonaj okazioj por revivigi lingvojn rustajn - ĝi estas tro konfuzaj kaj komplikaj por tio. In Lillo mi ne ankaŭ ne parolis multe, sed por tio ke Esperanto estis la sola lingvo kiun oni aŭdis (escepte de iuj bedaŭrindaj krokodilistoj!) mi povis promenadi ronde en la kongresejo kun konstanta interna monologo en mia kapo, kaj ĉar mi aŭdis tiom da Esperanto dum la konferenco, daŭrigas tiu kondiĉo ankaŭ post mi iris al Belgion kaj - poste - Danujon. Do nun mi parolas la Esperanton ke mi devus povi paroli en Berlino!

FR: Avant le congrès j'avais deux nuits en Paris (dans un hôtel nommé "Le Danemark") près du Jardin de Luxembourg, et en Belgique j'avais deux nuits à Mons et deux nuits à Mechelen. Mons est aussi francophone que Mechelen est flamophone (est-ce qu'on peut dire ça ?), et les autres villes que j'ai visité là était aussi nettement divisé en deux groupes selon leurs langue dominante. C'est un drôle de pays, et quand j'ai passé le Jardin de Bruxelles à Bruxelles j'ai entendu un guide anglophone se moquer des Belges parce que la question linguistique avait pu provoquer une situation où le pays était sans gouvernement pendant plus de 600 jours. Mais ne nous laissons pas leurrer à continuer cette discussion ici. Je me sentais bien à l'aise tant avec mon français qu'avec mon néerlandais - sauf dans une seule situation où je ne pus aucunément me souvenir du mot pour "rez-de-chaussé" en Flamand et devait accepter une phrase en Anglais pour m'en sortir, je me suis tenu strictement à parler la langue de la personne à qui j'avait une conversation - et seulement à Bruxelles on pouvait se demander quelle langue cela pourrait être. Mais à vrai dire, ça pourrait aussi bien être l'italien ou turque que le français ou flamand.

Edited by Iversen on 09 August 2015 at 1:43am

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Fasulye
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 Message 3925 of 3959
10 August 2015 at 7:59am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
EO: Unu evento kiel la 100a universala kongreso en Lillo estas
grandega afero - ĝi havis cirkaŭ 2.500 partoprenantojn, kaj oni atendus ke tia estus
bona okazio por paroli kun aliaj esperantistoj. Tamen fakte mi havis pli longajn
kunparoladojn dum la kunveno en Berlino - eĉ en Esperanto, kvankam mi Esperanto tiam
estis tre 'rusta' pro malaktiveco. Sed poliglotaj kunvenoj ne estas bonaj okazioj por
revivigi lingvojn rustajn - ĝi estas tro konfuzaj kaj komplikaj por tio. In Lillo mi
ne ankaŭ ne parolis multe, sed por tio ke Esperanto estis la sola lingvo kiun oni
aŭdis (escepte de iuj bedaŭrindaj krokodilistoj!) mi povis promenadi ronde en la
kongresejo kun konstanta interna monologo en mia kapo, kaj ĉar mi aŭdis tiom da
Esperanto dum la konferenco, daŭrigas tiu kondiĉo ankaŭ post mi iris al Belgion kaj -
poste - Danujon. Do nun mi parolas la Esperanton ke mi devus povi paroli en Berlino!

FR: Avant le congrès j'avais deux nuits en Paris (dans un hôtel nommé "Le
Danemark") près du Jardin de Luxembourg, et en Belgique j'avais deux nuits à Mons et
deux nuits à Mechelen. Mons est aussi francophone que Mechelen est flamophone (est-ce
qu'on peut dire ça ?), et les autres villes que j'ai visité là était aussi nettement
divisé en deux groupes selon leurs langue dominante. C'est un drôle de pays, et quand
j'ai passé le Jardin de Bruxelles à Bruxelles j'ai entendu un guide anglophone se
moquer des Belges parce que la question linguistique avait pu provoquer une situation
où le pays était sans gouvernement pendant plus de 600 jours. Mais ne nous laissons
pas leurrer à continuer cette discussion ici. Je me sentais bien à l'aise tant avec
mon français qu'avec mon néerlandais - sauf dans une seule situation où je ne
pus aucunément me souvenir du mot pour "rez-de-chaussé" en Flamand et devait
accepter une phrase en Anglais pour m'en sortir, je me suis tenu strictement à parler
la langue de la personne à qui j'avait une conversation - et seulement à Bruxelles on
pouvait se demander quelle langue cela pourrait être. Mais à vrai dire, ça pourrait
aussi bien être l'italien ou turque que le français ou flamand.


EO: Do vi en Berlino parolis pli da Esperanto kaj auxdis malpli kaj en Lille parolis
malpli kaj auxdis multe pli da Esperanto. Mi legos ankaux vian poston en la
interimforumo.

FR: Le rez-de-chaussée = de begaane grond (afgekort in de liften "BG")

Fasulye
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Iversen
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 Message 3926 of 3959
11 August 2015 at 7:01pm | IP Logged 
"de begaane grond" to me sounds like the ground that somebody walked on - and I certainly did.

From my trip I brought a number of science magazines and one (thin) book back home. The book was "Historio de la universala lingvo Volapuka", and what a sad story that was! Johann Martin Schleyer who invented it (allegedly during one sleepless night in 1879) was without doubt a language genius, but he constructed it on the basis of some weird logical rules that converted words from other languages into something utterly incomprehensible ("volapük" allegedly means "world language"). Nevertheless a fair number of clubs were formed for learners and supporters - although it seems that at least some conferences were conducted in German rather than the new languages, which must be seen as a bad omen. But the movement was split into several groups, because some members felt that changes were necessary, including a professor Kerckhoff - which Schleyer wasn't willing to accept. And within a few years the clubs closed down again, leaving just a few diehard volapük speakers on the planet. One of these, a Dutch professor Arie de Jong, tried to rescue it by defining a new 'dialect', but (of course) without luck.   

It is instructive to compare the same phrases in the different variants to see just how big the differences are. Here is (from p.23) one sentence in the canonical version and in Kerckhoff's version:

Ob abin Volapükan pedipedan fa kadem parisik.

Binop Volapük pediplomöl fa kadäm de 'Paris'.


OK, some elements are recognizable, but it is like reading Finnish and Estonian when you don't know any of the languages.

Actually Esperanto also had a crisis that lead to the creation of a 'child' language defined by a commitee, but that had a totally different outcome. I'm referring to the language "Ido", and in the Wikipedia article about it I saw some information that was totally new to me:

"Volapük was popular for some time and apparently had a few thousand users, but was later eclipsed by the popularity of Esperanto, which arose in 1887.(...) It was during this time that French mathematician Louis Couturat formed the Delegation for the Adoption of an International Auxiliary Language.(...) The Delegation then met as a Committee in Paris in October 1907 to discuss the adoption of a standard international language. Among the languages considered was a new language anonymously submitted under the pen name Ido. In the end the Committee concluded that no language was completely acceptable, but that Esperanto could be accepted "on condition of several modifications to be realized by the permanent Commission in the direction defined by the conclusions of the Report of the Secretaries [Louis Couturat and Léopold Leau] and by the Ido project."

And now the surprise:

"Esperanto's inventor, L. L. Zamenhof, had suggested in an 1894 proposition for a Reformed Esperanto several changes that Ido adopted: eliminating the accented letters and the accusative case, changing the plural to an Italianesque -i, and replacing the table of correlatives with more Latinate words. However, the Esperanto community rejected Reformed Esperanto, and likewise most rejected the recommendations of the 1907 Committee. Zamenhof deferred to their judgment."

So Zamenhof not only devised a language that was relatively easy to understand even for beginners and outsiders, but he also showed a degree of flexibility that was totally foreign to Schleyer. And it was actually the Esperanto community that by common consent decided to stick to the original form of the language. Which of course means that we today have to fight with diacritics and accusative n's, but there is a common consent about the language which Volapük apparently lacked. Ido may be simpler, but when the esparantists had the chance to get something simpler and easier they rejected it.

Speaking about planned languages: I find projects like Klingon and Quenya interesting, and I know they also have dedicated communities that include people who try to learn them, but I have never felt like joining their ranks. It would just be too much effort to do so for something that doesn't have an army and a fleet and a piece of land with some native speakers UNLESS that language is fairly easy to learn. And that is where Volapük in all its avatars failed.

Edited by Iversen on 11 August 2015 at 7:37pm

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Iversen
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 Message 3927 of 3959
12 August 2015 at 6:38pm | IP Logged 
DU: Mijn lezing-in-het-bus-naar-huis vandaag bestond uit teksten in het Fries over Frieze geschiedenis en een eenvoudig Engels tekst over een bepaalde episode uit het Romeinse Rijk z'n dagen: het slag bij Baduhenna. In het jaar XII passeerde de Romeinse generaal Drusus door de nabijheid van de Rijnisch Delta om een stam genaamd de Chauci te slaan, en hij heeft een beperkte belasting van de Rijnlanders ingevourd. Maar later hief een Romeinse gouverneur Olennius deze schat en behandelde de mensen daar zo hard dat het leidde tot een opstand. De proeprator Lucius Apronius kwaam uit het Romeinse grensleger aan de Beneden-Rijn om deze opstand te onderdrukken en slaagde erin om de belegerde Olennius te ontlasten, Maar de Friezen ging op de guerrilla-oorlog en anvall de kleine cavalerie-einheiden die Olonnius heeft gestuurd aan het gebied. En zo is gemeld van Tacitus dat 900 Romeinse soldaten werden geslagen in een bos genaamd Baduhenna, en andere 400 pleegde zelfmoord toen ze werden gevangen op het boderij van een verraader genoemd Cruptorix.

Ik lees dit rapport met hetzelfde plezier als ik lees over de fictieve gebeurtenissen in Asterix - en verbaasde me tegelijkertijd dat deze strijd niet dezelfde publiciteit het gekregen als de slag in het Teutoburger Bos, die Duitsland en de Scandinavische landen gered heeft van de Romeinse heerschappij. Zonder de slag bij Baduhenna bos hadden de Nederlanders en Vlamingen waarschijnlijk vandaag de dag een Romaanse taal gesproken.


.. or in other words: why do the Dutch and Flemish still speak a Germanic language? Well, part of the explanation for this is a decisive, but fairly unknown victory by Frisians living around the Rhine delta. In the bus-back-home-from-my-job I read the Frisian and the English Wikipedia articles about the battle at the Baduhenna wood. The story (as told by Tacitus) is that the Romans under Drusus had occupied the area and imposed modest taxes, but shortly after a greedy governor raised the taxes and harassed the population until a revolt arose. The tax collectors were killed and the governor had to seek refuge in a fort, from where he was rescued by the military commander of the Lower Rhine area.

That operation went smoothly, but afterwards, when the Roman troops were spread out in small detachments, the Frisians attacked these and killed a lot of Romans - like 900 in the Baduhenna wood, while 400 others at the residence of a local traitor chose to commit suicide. Punishment was postponed, and in the meantime emperor Claudius had decided to let the Rhine be the limit of the Roman empire in this area. A few years later the Chatti (later called the Batavians) rebelled, and even though the Romans eventually prevailed their grip on the area remained fragile.

Later one the Frisians were hard hit by natural disasters, caused by living so close to the sea, and in the long run their area shrank until they today mainly subsist in the Northern part of the Netherlands. Therefore it actually were other tribes who profited most from the early bravery of the Frisians and the Chatti. One funny thing is that the leaders of one of these other tribes, the Franks, became rulers over over vast ares further to the South, and in the proces they switched to the local variety of Vulgar Latin. But further North the Germanic languages survived. In France - which was totally Romanized - the old Celtic languages disappeared almost everywhere, leaving just Brittany.

Edited by Iversen on 13 August 2015 at 2:36am

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Iversen
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 Message 3928 of 3959
14 August 2015 at 12:38am | IP Logged 
My studies this week have been limited not only by having to organize my photos and other travel related stuff after my voyage to France, Esperantistan/Lillo and Belgium, but also by my ongoing cassette conversion project. So far I'm midway through D.Buxtehude so there is quite a way to go before I reach Z (Zemlinski).

As an offspring of my listening through my Bruckner cassettes I have been reading about the fate of the finale to his 9. and last symphony, which was left unfinished. Unfortunately these writings have mostly been in English so they don't really contribute to my language learning. In my own collection I have got this movement in a rendering by Samale/Mazzuca and conducted by Eliahu Inbal, but this version has been superseeded by a series of later versions collectively known as the Samale/Mazzuca/Phillips/Cohrs completion, but the main thing is that the 9. should be played with the nearest thing we can come to a 4. movement. Playing just the first three movements is totally against the plans of the composer, and there are clearly enough sketches left to make a decent attempt at a completion.


Edited by Iversen on 14 August 2015 at 11:47am



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