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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
 Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5845 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes  1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 1025 of 3959 28 June 2009 at 6:23pm | IP Logged | |||||
Danke, Bao, dann habe ich das dazugelernt. Ich bin noch nie auf einem Antikmarkt gewesen, daher kommt meine Unkenntnis. Fasulye Edited by Fasulye on 28 June 2009 at 6:24pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6701 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 1026 of 3959 28 June 2009 at 7:53pm | IP Logged | |||||
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People have been blocked or muzzled for many reasons, sometimes obvious, sometimes not. But the only one who can do that is the administrator, so for the time being it is a waste of time of trying to sniff out those that have re-registrered under a new name. To take teh must discussed case, there isn't much doubt that turaisiawase is Siomotteikiru, but personally I am not that scared - she may be somewhat undiplomatic at times, but also provides a lot of useful input. But there isn't much doubt about what the administrator would do if he returned.
I would say the same thing as Patuco: just ignore the hunt for Sio - it isn't relevant, and you only make problems for yourself by entering discussions about those things. Besides I'm not really happy about my log being transformed into a battlefield. Edited by Iversen on 28 June 2009 at 10:19pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6701 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 1027 of 3959 28 June 2009 at 10:31pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I have spent some time trying to get a feeling for Tagalog, using my bilingual Bible text (from Lexilogos), but it is far from easy. In order to really understand the Filippine text I transform King James' English version into a hyperliteral translation, which with such a distant language inevitably must contain a lot of grammatical markers. However I have found that my three (small) dictionaries and Translate.google are not nearly enough to decode the Tagalog text, not even when I in general terms understand it on the basis of the English text. I have moved from doing this on paper to doing it on my PC because I then can make experiments using Translate.Google, but even Google can't always make head and tails of this text, - as seen at the bottom, where I have added an authentic translation attempt. I have used 1person, 2person and 3person as generalized pronouns because they basically cover all cases, including the possessive..
sumigaw / nga kay Eliseo / ang isang babae / na isa sa / mga asawa / ng mga anak / ng mga propeta/, na nagsasabi: ... now there cried a certain woman of the wiwes of the sons of the prophets unto Elisha, saying: .... Activeverb-cried "kay" Nof ocus-Eliseo Focus -one-woman & nbsp;Connection-one-of Plural-wiwes-of &nbs p; Plural-sons-of Plural-prophets, Connection-Present-say: Problem: what is "kay" ? - not found in the dictionaries --------------- ang iyong lingkod / na aking asawa / ay / patay na,/ Thy servant my husband is dead, Focus-2person -servant Connection-1person -Nofocus-husband Wordorder dead-"na", Problem: what is the "na" after "patay" doing there? --------------- at / iyong / talastas / na ang iyong lingkod / ay / natakol sa / panginoon and thou knowest that thy servant did fear the lord, and Focus-2person understood Connection-Focus-2person-servant Wordorder fear-connection lord Problem: natakol < matakol ? (to 'fear' in the religious sense) - not found in the dictionaries --------------- at / ang pinagkautangan / ay / naparito / upang kuning / alipinin niya / ang aking dalawang anak and the creditor is come to take unto him my two sons to be bondmen and / Focus-origine_obligation / Wordorder / to-Nofocus Passive-takeback* / enslawe 3person / Focus 1person two children Problem: *take back or come back , not found in the dictionaries Google's translation: and pinagkautangan is kuning naparito to enslave him my two children Edited by Iversen on 28 June 2009 at 10:46pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| mado Newbie Italy Joined 5625 days ago 4 posts - 4 votes | Message 1028 of 3959 29 June 2009 at 9:18am | IP Logged | |||||
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IT: La neurofisiologista Italiana Alice Mado Proverbio ha svolto studi sul concetto di lingua madre. I suoi soggetti erano Italiano interpreti simultanei di madre lingua Italiana "di notevole esperienza ed elevata professionalità", iempiegati all'Unione europea e speciallizzati nella lingua inglese. Eppure si è potuto vedere una ampiezza molto maggiore nella loro attività cerebrale quando se le presentava parole Italiane rispetto a quando se le presentava parole inglese. E le differenze erano ancora piè importanti con altre lingue come il tedesco, che non sapevano così bene: "un primo picco di attività ERP (denominato N170), osservabile sulla regione visiva sinistra del cervello in un intervallo di tempo tra 150 e 200 ms dalla presentazione delle parole, aveva un'ampiezza diversa a seconda che la parola letta appartenesse alla lingua madre o a lingue apprese successivamente". Se ho ben capito bene questo risultato, significa che le lettere - vale a dire la lingua scritta - mette il suo timbro sulle lingue imparati degli adulti. al contrio della lingua materna (o altre lingue imparate da bambini di meno di 5 anni).
"L'apprendimento della traduzione in inglese del termine coltello (knife), dopo la formazione delle conoscenze sul mondo, corrisponderà all’acquisizione di un’informazione di tipo puramente fonetico (cioè uditivo) e ortografico (cioè grafico), e non condividerà il substrato neurobiologico della memoria dell’individuo, se non in modo indiretto." --- The Italian neurophysiologist Mado Proverbio has investigated the responses in the brain to Italian and English words, using an extremely accomplished group of EU-employed simultaneous interpreters as her guinea pigs. They were Italians and had English as their primary second language. She found that the brain activity was remarkably different when presented with Italian words, compared with the the situation when the words were English. The results suggested that the identifation of foreign language words primarily was based on the outer shape of the letters, to some extent also on the phonetic 'shape'. In contrast the Italian words triggered much more content related acitivity, which "Proverbio attributed [...] to the fact [that] the brain absorbs the mother tongue at a time when it is also storing early visual, acoustic, emotional and other nonlinguistic knowledge." Only foreign languages learnt before the 5. year displayed the same reactions as the maternal language. So it does matter when you learn your first foreign language... * EDIT: don't believe these numbers, - see the discussion below[/QUOTE] 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| mado Newbie Italy Joined 5625 days ago 4 posts - 4 votes | Message 1029 of 3959 29 June 2009 at 9:25am | IP Logged | |||||
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La sottile ironia del "EU-employed simultaneous interpreters as her guinea pigs" non mi è del tutto chiara. Come si permette di mettere in dubbio la qualificazione di quelle persone, le ricordo che sulle riviste scientifiche non si raccontano fandonie. Lei piuttosto ha un Italiano pessimo.... neurofisiologista ..soggetti erano Italiano interpreti ...al contrio..mette il suo timbro...le raccomaderei un pò più di umiltà.
AM Proverbio 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6701 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 1030 of 3959 29 June 2009 at 9:47am | IP Logged | |||||
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IT: Non c'è nessuna ironia nel mio commentario (25/7), - al contrario il risultato è un poco tragico per noi che studiamo le lingue stranieri. E se ho sottolineato che è uno studio Italiano con soggeti Italiani, è proprio perché si compare la loro lingua madre ed il loro inglese - non vi è nessuna polemica in questo punto. Lo che mi interessa nel suo esperimento è precisamente il fatto che questo gruppo di persone sono probabilmente tra le più capabili nella sua lingua secondaria (l'inglese), ma anche questi esperti non possono nascondere che sono fondamentalmente Italiani.
Abbiamo avuto in questo foro molte discussione sul tema de lingua materna e lingue secondarie. Voremmo credere che non esiste un limite superiore al livello che si possa attingere. Ma il suo esperimento mostra chiaramente che ci resterà sempre una differenza, e che infatti il soglio è di 5 anni e non de 11-12 anni o più come si dice in altri testi. Grazie per il commentario, anche se non mi posso dichiarare colpevole di qualsiasi denigrazione di interpreti o scienziati Italiani. NB: Il passaggio "** EDIT: don't believe these numbers, - see the discussion below[/QUOTE]" non fa parte delle mie osservazioni sul esperimento di Mado Proverbio.) Edited by Iversen on 30 June 2009 at 10:16pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6701 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 1031 of 3959 30 June 2009 at 8:58pm | IP Logged | |||||
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GER: Ich habe heute eine CD mit Instrumentalauszüge des Niebelungenrings von Richard Wagner gehört. Die hintergrund ist ein Bißchen atypisch: ich bin heute wegen Nabelbruchs operiert geworden, und statt mich ganz zu Betäuben zu lassen, sollte ich eine CD mit Betäubungsmusik selbst mitbringen, und ich würde dann nur eine örtliche Betäubung erhalten und konnte so nach einige friedliche Stunden wieder nach Hause zurückkehren. Die Musik Wagners ist für diesen Zweck ganz hervorragend geeignet: sie ist langatmig, wohlklingend (jedenfalls ohne die lästigen Sänger) and bedeutend Inhaltsreicher als die sogenannte Meditations- oder New Age Musik.
Aber es gibt dazu auch eine kulturelle und Literarische Perspektive: Wagner hat den sogenannten Niebelungen-Ring (einen Opernzyklus mit vier Opern: das Rheingold, Die Valküre, Siegfried und Götterdämmerung) auf teilweise auf einem mittelhochdeutsche Epos, der Niebelungenlied, basiert, aber dazu noch viele Themen der Altnordischen Sagen nacherzählt, die vielleicht selbst teilweise auf jetzt verlorengegangenen Gemeingermanischen Mythen der Völkerwanderungszeit zurückgehen. Auch in Völuspá wird von einem unheilbringenden Ring erzählt, von Zwergen geschmiedet, aber gestohlen von Wotan (Ódin), der es notgedrungen weitergeben mußte as Teil des Lohnes für den Mauerbau des Walhallas, dann durch Brudermord in dem Hort des Drachens Fafners gelandet, von Siegfred genommen (nach dem Sieg über dem Drachen), bis es letztendlich in der Rhein seinen letzten Ruheplatz wieder findet (was den Göttern und besonders dem Wotan immens ärgert, aber der dreien Rheintöchter sichtlicht freut - jedenfalls jauchzeln sie lauthals darüber am ende der Götterdämmerung). Die Götterdämmerung ist natürlich als ein Parallel des Nordischen Ragnaroks zu sehen, aber Fafner und Siegfried sind nicht im Völuspá wiederzutreffen, sondern in einem Heldengedicht über Sigurds Fafnirsbána (oder Wurm-in-Auge), und die Walküren sind zwar auch im Nordischen Mythologie bekannt, aber Brünhilde und Leute wie Gunther und der düstere Hagen sind eindeutig aus einem mitteleuropäischen Mythenkreis genommen, vermutlich mit wiederklänge der Historie der Burgunden- und Frankenreichen, und mit Nachklänge der unfreundlicher Besuch des Hunnenkönigs Attilla. "Brünhilde" ist in der tat der Name einer merowingischen Köningin, mit Siegeric verheiratet und im ewigen Streit mit einer gewissen Fredegunde (verheiratet mit Chilperic - oder bloß seiner Maitresse) eingefedelt, deren Mord sie letztendlich hergebracht hat - aber selber hat sie ihren eigenen Tod gebunden an den Schwanz einer galoppierenden Rosses gefunden. Wagner hat klügerweise dies nicht im Ring aufgenommen, aber läßt Brünhilde eine endlose viertelstunde darüber singen daß sie sich jetzt auf dem Feuerbestattung des toten Siegfreds werfen will, was tatsächlich auch geschieht zur Erleichterung von allen. Das arme Publikum kann somit endlich mehr Tod als lebendig nach hause kehren und sich einen hinter die Binde gießen um aus dem Wagnerischen Zauberkreis auszubrechen. Jetzt muß ich mich ein paar Tagen erholen, und niemand hat gesagt daß ich nicht an meinem PC sitzen darf, - vielleicht werde ich die Originalversion des Niebelungenliedes auf dem Internet irgendwo aufstöbern können und sehen ob ich sie ohne weiteres lesen kann (wenn nötig mit der Hilfe einer Ûbersetzung) --------- I have had a minor operation for hernia today, and the hospital told me that they didn't intend to sedate me completely, so I had better bring along some suitable music to listen to while they stitched me together. I chose some instrumental excerpts from the Niebelungen ring of Richard Wagner, an immense opera tetralogy based partly on Norse Mythology (probably with a common Germanic background), partly on a Middle High German poem from around 1100 which retells the history of the Burgundy Kingdom which existed around the year 4-500 (not to be confused with the later Burgundy Duchy from the time around the 100 years war). Among the ideas that stems from the Völuspá (which I have described in earlier posts here) is the idea of a cursed ring, and of course also Götterdämmerung (the Twilight of the Gods, aka Ragnarok) - though Wagner doesn't kill off the gods. There are also valkyries in the Old Nordic mythology (the mighty ladys that dragged dead warriors to Walhalla, where they all would live happily - at least until Ragnarok). On the other hand these themes are combined with the themes surrounding the Burgundy Kingdom and its neighbour, the Frankish Kingdom (which as ruled by the Merovingians), as told in the Nibelungenlied. In fact the name Brunhilde probably is taken from a Merovingian queen, who was married to a king called Siegerich and who spent her life fighting another queen called Fredegunde. She finally got her killed, but ended her own life tied to to tail of a galopping horse - it was a rough time (but in the opera she just sings an interminably long song about having decided to jump unto the pyre of her beloved, but dead Siegfried, and people let her do it just to get the opera ended in a nice way). The cursed ring is then thrown back into the Rhine (much to the dismay of Wotan), and the Rhine Daughters who swim around there is very happy about this - most women seem to like jewelery. Curtain, time to go home - more dead than alive after all this drama. Wagner's Ring is commonly seen as an chore that every serious opera lover has to endure - but it is much more practicable just to make do just with the enjoyable instrumental excerpts including a number of transcriptions - all in all easily in excess of one hour of soothing, sonorous and sedating music. Edited by Iversen on 23 July 2009 at 6:39pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5845 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 1032 of 3959 30 June 2009 at 9:04pm | IP Logged | |||||
Das ist ja super, wenn dir deine klassische Musik medizinisch hilft. Das habe ich auch schon im Fernsehen gehört, dass klassiche Musik medizinisch sehr beruhigend wirken soll. Die Wirkung tritt aber nur ein, wenn man diese Musik wirklich mag. Ich wünsche dir gute Genesung! Fasulye 1 person has voted this message useful |
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