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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6703 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes  Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 1241 of 3959 16 August 2009 at 10:51am | IP Logged | ||
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C'est comme dans les opéras - on a toujours le temps de chanter un peu avant de mourir. Même la pauvre petite Mimi dans la Bohème (Puccini), qui est moribonde à cause de tuberculose (qui est une maladie des poumons) a la force de couvrir un orchestre de peut-être 50 ou 60 musiciens - plus les spectateurs avec leur téléphones portables et leurs sachets de bonbons.
-------- This song of M. Brel reminds me of the operas, where there always is time for a song before somebody important dies. And this includes cases like Mimi in La Bohème (Puccini) who is supposed to be dying from tuberculosis, which is a pulmonary disease, but who nevertheless is able to scream louder than an orchestra of maybe 50 or 60 musicians plus their competitors among the spectators with their mobile phones and popcorn containers. The English word "moribund" can also be used about non-persons. A good example would be languages that are bound to perish within the next few years Edited by Iversen on 16 August 2009 at 10:54am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6703 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 1242 of 3959 17 August 2009 at 12:56am | IP Logged | ||
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GR: Δεν δούλεψα την Παρασκευή, αλλά αντί ήταν στη δουλειά μου σήμερα, έτσι δεν ήταν τόσο πολύ χρόνο για την μάθηση των γλωσσων (μόνο αρκετό χρόνο για να διαπράξει γκάφα στην δανική νήμα). Αλλά έκλεινα δωματιá ξσενοδοξειών για το ελληνικό τμήμα της επικείμενης ταξίδι μου, έτσι έχω διαβάσει κάποιες ιστοσελίδες για τις πόλεις της Ηπείρου - ιδιαίτερα τα Ιωάννινα, την οποία ελπίζω να διευθετήσουν την μεταφορά στην Αλβανία. Έχω επισκεφθεί προηγουμένως την Κέρκυρα και την Θεσσαλονίκη, αλλά τίποτα μεταξύ των δύο αυτών θέσεων. Αγωνιώ να δω πóσο μπορώ να πω εκεί με την σπιτική μου ελληνική.
--------- I took a day off Friday and instead I have worked today (Sunday), so I didn't have much time for my language studies (but enough to make a gross error in the Danish thread). I have made hotel reservations for Epirus, so I have read several pages in Greek about the cities and nature of this area. I expect to arrange transportation to Albania when I get to Ioannina. Unfortunately I won't have time to learn Albanian, which is a problem - I remember from my last trip there that not all Albanians are fluent in other languages. But when I get there I will buy the best possible Albanian grammar (for possible use later, - I already have a fairly large dictionary). DA: Herudover har jeg naturligvis også arbejdet på mit serbiske. Here-out-over have I naturally also worked on my Serbian. Jeg har lavet et grønt grammatikark med substantivernes og adjektivernes bøjning, I have made a green grammar-sheet with substantivesThe's and adjectivesThe's declension, og det viste sig at jeg i første omgang havde overset at maskuline substantiver på én stavelse and it showed *self that I in first round had overlooked that masculine nouns on one syllable indskyder et infix mellem stamme og endelse i pluralis (ов/ев) - input an infix between stem and ending in plural (ов/ев) - jeg opdagede dette ved at læse de grammatiske bemærkninger i min italienske<-->serbiske ordbog, I discovered this by reading the grammatical remarks in my Italian<-->Serbian dictionary, som jeg ellers havde opgivet, fordi de fleste af de ord som jeg slog op ikke stod i den. which I otherwise had up-given, because the majority of the words that I looked up not stood in it. Desuden har jeg skrevet russiske og serbiske ordlister baseret på ord som jeg har fundet i diverse artikler. Besides have I written Russian and Serbian wordlists based on words which I have found in diverse articles. (*: I have decided to write "self" whenever I need an unspecified reflexive pronoun - this was allowed in Anglosaxon) DU: ...En net als ik mijn computer zou uitschakelen ontdekte ik Fasulye z'n nieuwste video. Maar 'gelukkig' heb ik alleen te luisteren naar het begin en het einde (beide in het Nederlands) - het midden was in het Turks, die ik niet begrijp. Edited by Iversen on 17 August 2009 at 10:48am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5847 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 1243 of 3959 17 August 2009 at 2:25pm | IP Logged | ||
Dat was maar even een "spontane tussendoortje" als video, mijn vriend heeft dat even snel met zijn mobieltje opgenomen. De video die wij sowieso gepland hebeen, willen we eind van deze week opnemen. Daar zullen dan ook 4 talen aan bod komen, die Iversen niet frustreren. Heel interessant vooral een reactie op mijn Turkse leesoefening, want het Turks blijkt voor 80 % verstaanbaar te zijn voor een spreker van het Kazachisch. Het Turks is vanuit de Romaanse of Germaanse talen werkelijk niet te verstaan, dat weet ik ook. Fasulye PS: Bedankt voor de Deense hyperliterals!!! Edited by Fasulye on 17 August 2009 at 2:26pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6703 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 1244 of 3959 17 August 2009 at 2:32pm | IP Logged | ||
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I would like to draw the attention to an article called "A neurocognitive perspective on language: The declarative/procedural model".
The main point in this article is that "Language depends on two mental capacities: a memorized 'mental lexicon' and a computational 'mental grammar'. The mental lexicon is a repository of stored information, including all idiosyncratic, word-specific information. It […] might also comprise complex linguistic structures, such as phrases and sentences, the meanings of which cannot be derived transparently from their parts (for example, idiomatic phrases such as 'kick the bucket'). But language also consists of regularities, which can be captured by the rules of grammar. The rules […] allow us to interpret the meanings of complex forms even if we have not heard or seen them before.". "The basic premise of the declarative/procedural model is that aspects of the lexicon/grammar distinction are tied to the distinction between two well-studied brain memory systems — declarative and procedural memory — that have been implicated in non-language functions in humans and other animals." These two aspects of knowing a language are localized in different parts of the brain:" Declarative memory is subserved by regions of the medial temporal lobe — in particular, the hippocampus — which are largely connected with temporal and temporoparietal neocortical regions". …. and "The procedural memory system (…) is rooted in portions of the frontal cortex (including Broca's area and the supplementary motor area), the basal ganglia, parietal cortex and the dentate nucleus of the cerebellum". This model is not the only one on the market, - the opposing view, that everything about language forms one unitary system, has also its supporters. However the separation between 'chunks' and what to do with them sounds convincing to me, and there is solid evidence from the study of aphasics that you can lose your sense of word meanings without losing your ability to form grammatically correct sentences and vice-versa. Now this doesn't specifically address language learning, but it does illustrate why you can learn everything about a language (including tons of words and thousands of grammatical rules) without being able to speak it. Personally I see it as an argument for retaining both updated versions of rote learning and actual training in speech production, and it also illustrates why it is possible (and relevant) to train each of these isolated from the other. But both are necessary. There is one thing that should be stressed in relation to language learning, namely that "any regular form can, in principle, be memorized. The likelihood of memorization should increase with factors such as the frequency with which the item is encountered or individual variation in learning abilities of the declarative memory system. ". I have seen somewhere an article that claimed that a native speaker generally relies on individually stored verbal forms, even when they could be derived according to a regular pattern. In contrast the beginner retrieves a basic form and then transforms it - which of course takes time. This doesn't undermine the distinction between declarative and procedural, but only shows that individual language elements can move from one category to the other. EDIT: since I read the article it seems that the free access to it has been abolished. Edited by Iversen on 20 August 2009 at 1:36am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6703 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 1245 of 3959 17 August 2009 at 3:03pm | IP Logged | ||
DU: Het komend weekend ga ik op vakantie, en het is niet zeker dat er een koptelefoon is aan de computers in Balkan. Maar dan hoor ik gewoon de volgende video toen ik thuis weer ben. LGER: Ik heff dit tofällig funnen: "De Brukers vun de Wikipedia op Plattdüütsch hebbt utmaakt, dat se de Sass-Schrievwies na dat Wöörbook vun Johannes Sass (kiek ok ünner Wikipedia:Wöörböker)" bruken deit. The users of the Wikipedia in Low German have decided, that they from now on will use the "Sass-orthography" according to the dictionary of Johannes Sass. So now even Low German may get a standardized writing, - which is one of the things that separates a proper language from a loose dialect bundle. In fact High German has had a lot of success with the standardization based on Luther's bible translation - it just took Low German 500 years to realize the potential of this invention (and now it may be too late). Edited by Iversen on 17 August 2009 at 3:17pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6703 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 1246 of 3959 18 August 2009 at 6:38pm | IP Logged | ||
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Om Storm P
I dag skal vi se let nærmere på den lavkøbenhavnske dialekt, som Robert Storm Petersen udødeliggjorde i en række små fortællinger og tegninger med tekst. Selv om det er 60 år siden han døde, er hans minde stadig lyslevende i danmark - men ikke udenfor landets grænser, for hans tekster er vanskelig at fange på andre sprog. Jeg vil dog bringe en smagsprøve nedenfor. Hans persongalleri består overvejende af sære eksistenser i den københavnske middel- og underklasse. De kendteste er hans vagabonder, der ofte har græske navne (Sokrates, Themistokles osv.), men her skal vi hilse på hr. "Frederik med Trænæsen". PS: hvis nogen vil høre Storm P's tekster, så er der kun ét valg: afdøde Ebbe Rodes klassiske indspilninger af et antal monologer. -------- About Storm P Today I'll spin a yarn about the venerable and beloved Danish humorist Robert Storm Petersen (1882-1949), who wrote a lot of monologues and stort stories in his own unmistakable version of 'Low Copenhagenish' (there is also an upper class dialect, called "Hellerupsk"). He also made a lot of drawings, often of philosophical hobos with Greek names. However the gentleman we are about to meet is called "Frederic with the wooden Nose". Notice that all substantives are written with Capital letters (as in German), - that was the official orthography until 1948, just as "aa" for "å". Fred'rik med trænæsen - der har trukket sig ud af det offentlige Liv, Frederik with woodnoseThe - who has (with)drawn self out of the public life, nyder sit Otium og sin Snaps i en tom anden Klasses Kupé, enjoys his retirement and his snaps [liquour] in an empty second class compartment, der er udrangeret og står i ensom Majestæt og Skønhed langt ude, hvor Skinnerne ruster af Glemsomhed. which is discarded and stands in lone majesty and beauty long out, where railsThe rust from forgetfullness Jeg lader ham snakke: I let him talk: Ser De - Othello og saa mig vi sad en Da' ude på Strandvejen* See you - Othello and me we sat a day out on BeachroadThe * [the road along Øresund, -one of the most expensive places to live in Denmark] og sku' lære min ene Fer'støvle og tae' det høje C. and should teach my one feather-boot and take the high C Det var gevaltigt varmt saa jæ' sad i Skyggen a' Othello og arbejdede med Støvlen - It was force-ly hot so I sat in shadowThe of Othello and worked with BootThe - a' og te' gled et enlig Dampskiv forbi i Sundet som a' der li'nede grøn Seve. Of and to glided a lonely steamboat past in the Strait which that there ressembled green soap. Det var morderlig tidlig om Morningen It was murder-ly early in morningThe og vi ku' høre en Grosserer snorke i sit Palajs med Søjler og egen Indgang. and we could hear a merchant snore in his Palace with columns and own entrance. Et par Graaspurve lavede fest hist og her A couple GreySparrows made party there and here - og ellers var der ikke no'ed der ku' ødelægge Ingtrykket a' Interiøret. - and otherwise was there not anything that could spoil impressionThe of interiorThe. Så lie' som vi sitter - saa si'er Othello: Du - Fred'rik -ka' du høre det rumler? So right as we sit then says Othello: thou - Frederik - can you hear it rumbles? Jæ' la'e Øret ne'r te' Vejen, som a' jæ' har læst i Ingdianerhistaarierne - a' Buffalo Bill gør I laid earThe down to roadThe, as I have read in indian-stories-The that Buffalo Bill does - naar a' han hørte der var no'et der puslede. - when that he heard there was something that rustled. Det æ' en Ølvogn - sagde Othello - Han lignede det ingvendige 'a en Leverpostej i Ansigtet a' bar' nervæsitet. That is a beer-waggon - said Othello - He ressembled the interior of a liver-paste in faceThe of pure nervosity. La vær' og skav dig - sa'e jæ' saa - æ' det en Ølvogn - saa er det en Ølvogn - Let be and makeafuss you - said I then - is it a beer-waggon then is it a beer-waggon - og saa gælder det om og opføre sig koldblodigt. - and then be-urgent it about and behave self coldbloody. Edited by Iversen on 18 August 2009 at 7:00pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| DaraghM Diglot Senior Member Ireland Joined 6151 days ago 1947 posts - 2923 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French, Russian, Hungarian | Message 1247 of 3959 19 August 2009 at 11:31am | IP Logged | ||
I really enjoyed reading your thoughts on this matter. I think this has big implications beyond language learning, and covers most fields of human endeavour. I think chunks moving from procedural to declarative memory, is the same process when learned elements move from the conscious to the subconcious. As this occurs in language learning, we feel we're thinking in the language, as we no longer make a conscious effort to translate or manipulate the language. In other tasks, we feel we're operating on auto-pilot, as we don't need to think out every step of our actions. I think the martial arts are heavily reliant on this phenomena, as a series of body moves that happen subconciously will happen faster than those that are planned, leading to a significant advantage. With regards to my language learning, the ability to go from procedural to declarative is not consistent. In some instances, I can manipulate the written language a lot easier than the spoken language. This is very much the case with French, and is probably a legacy of my old school days. When it comes to Spanish, I focused on the spoken language, and my speaking fluency is much stronger, but I had to learn to write and spell it later. Do you experience this disjoint, or do both come as easily for you? Edited by DaraghM on 19 August 2009 at 11:31am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6703 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 1248 of 3959 19 August 2009 at 12:37pm | IP Logged | ||
When I'm at home I'm primarily oriented towards the written language, and because I have better time to formulate and reformulate my sentences in writing I tend to check tings in dictionaries and grammars (including my own 'green sheets') - i.e. I'm in fact reinforcing the declarative side of my language learning. When I'm travelling or speaking to foreigners at home there isn't time for that, so then the procedural aspect is the predominant one, i.e. the ability to use the things I already know without thinking about rules and translations of words. But I'm not travelling nearly enough, and at home I meet few foreigners - so instead I just think. Both aspects of language use and language learning are necessary, and both must be trained. I don't feel that I have languages that in se are declarative and others that are procedural - which could be the outcome if it was important how the different languages were learnt in the first place. For me it is simply a question of level: at a certain stage a certain language functions at a certain level of automation, and the better you are, the more of the language has been automated, leaving time for thinking about the content. Edited by Iversen on 19 August 2009 at 6:27pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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