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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Fasulye
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 Message 825 of 3959
05 May 2009 at 9:50pm | IP Logged 
THAT'S HOW LEXILOGOS WRITES MODERN GREEK

Θατ'ς υερυ ιντερστινγ, Ιυερσεν! Ορ ευεν μορε, ρεαλλυ φασκινατινγ, ωρτιτινγ λατιν λεττερς ανδ θερε αππεαρς Γρεεκ σκριπτ. Φορ Τυρκισ- υνφορτυνατλυ - θις δοες νοτ ωορκ. -οπεφυλλυ υου αρε αβλε το ρεαδ μυ Γρεεκ Ενγλισ-!!! ΛΟΛ.

Fasulye-Babylonia
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Iversen
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 Message 826 of 3959
05 May 2009 at 10:22pm | IP Logged 
Recht wrote:
in welcher Sprache denkst du? Manchmal denke ich in halbe
Englische halb Deutsche Sätze, und das ist ein bit funny.


Ich versuche in jeder Sprache die ich kenne zu denken, und wenn ich z.B. Frankreich oder Italien oder Deutschland besuche versuche ich nur in der Landessprache zu denken. Dasselbe könnte ich sicher noch nicht in z.B. Esperanto oder Afrikaans oder Griechisch oder Russisch tun, aber ich versuche es trotzdem, und wenn ich hier schreibe denke ich meistens in der Sprache der Mitteilung.

Denken geht in meiner Welt vor Schreiben, und schreiben geht vor sprechen... was vielleicht ein bißchen ungewöhnlich ist.

Fasulye: ich verstehe dein 'Griechisch' problemlos

Edited by Iversen on 06 May 2009 at 5:54pm

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Recht
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 Message 827 of 3959
05 May 2009 at 10:31pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
Recht wrote:
in welcher Sprache denkst du? Manchmal denke ich in
halbe
Englische halb Deutsche Sätze, und das ist ein bit funny.


Ich versuche in jeder Sprache die ich kenne zu denken, und wenn ich z.B. Frankreich
oer Italien oder Deutschland besuche versuche ich nur in der Landessprache zu denken.
Das könnte ich sicher nicht in z.B. Platt oder Afrikaans oder Griechisch oder Russisch
tun, aber ich versuche es trotzdem, und wenn ich hier schreibe denke ich meistens in
der Sprache der Mitteilung.

Denken geht in meiner Welt vor Schreiben, und schreiben geht vor sprechen... was
vielleicht ein bißchen ungewöhnlich ist.

Fasulye: ich verstehe dein 'Griechisch' problemlos


und in deine Freizeit, wenn du nicht bemerkt hast, dass du gedankenverloren bist?
Immer Dänisch? Oder vielleicht gibt es keine Freizeit :)
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Iversen
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 Message 828 of 3959
05 May 2009 at 10:41pm | IP Logged 
Dies ist meine Freizeit, und gerade jetzt denke ich in Deutsch, obwohl ich Fern gucke auf English mit Untertiteln in Dänisch (etwas über New Zealand). Ich meine nicht, daß ich deshalb verlorengegangen bin.

Edited by Iversen on 05 May 2009 at 10:41pm

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Iversen
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 Message 829 of 3959
06 May 2009 at 8:15am | IP Logged 
PL: ... un dit is mien Project, die sien Kurs lopen mutt. Ik heff blots twee lüerlütte Woordeboeken, de eene minnere als de önner, so 't warrt nich gresig grote nummers vun dit Deelproject. Mien "Plattdeutsches Wörterbuch" hett so um die 9.000 Steekwoorden un ek denk dat ek do so um die 4.900 kenn, 54% - aver 62% vun die Woorden die ek teld heff.
Ek heff lang nix gedoen um mien Platt te wohren, - dat is Schiet. Ek heff all miene Bööker al leest, dat is lang vörbi, so ek mutt nu wat davun weerlesen. Spraken sünd wie   lütten Kinder, man mütt se fodden bet se sülvst wat im Köhlschaff finnen können.

---

... and this this is my project which still must run its fateful course, - this time with Low German. Unfortunately I only have two tiny dictionaries, and I have used the largest of these, my SASS with 9000 words, "Aufschlagwörter" (though maybe this includes parallel forms which are very common in Low German, - my own calculations gave a total around 7400 lexemes). And based upon a sample of just 6 pages (I haven't got time for more this Morning) I am supposed to know 4.900 of these, which represents 54% af the official total and 62% of those that I have taken into account.

To be honest I haven't done anything about my Platt for some time. I have read all my books, and there is not much of interest on the internet. I'll have to reread some of those books to keep in shape, - languages are like small children: you have to feed them until they get big enough to find themselves something to eat in the fridge. With most of my other languages it isn't a problem to find suitable material, and with English I feel like one of these French geese that get enormous quantities of fodder stuffed right down their throats with a hose so that their livers can get really bloated and disgusting.

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josht
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 Message 830 of 3959
06 May 2009 at 3:10pm | IP Logged 
Iversen, I have a question regarding your study of grammar. Obviously, I know that you use word lists to learn new words, but I'm not entirely clear on how you go about learning the grammar of a new language. For example, regarding Russian, how do you go about learning the declensions? I know that you do an analysis of the grammar, and then make a boiled down version of the endings, which you then put on big pieces of green paper, so as to not lose them.

I suppose the key question, though, is this: by making your sheets, have you memorized all of the endings during the process? If not, do you then go about memorizing them, *or* do you jump into texts, assuming that after repeatedly looking things up, they'll stick in your memory?
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Iversen
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 Message 831 of 3959
06 May 2009 at 5:53pm | IP Logged 
josht wrote:
...I know that you do an analysis of the grammar, and then make a boiled down version of the endings, which you then put on big pieces of green paper, so as to not lose them. I suppose the key question, though, is this: by making your sheets, have you memorized all of the endings during the process? If not, do you then go about memorizing them, *or* do you jump into texts, assuming that after repeatedly looking things up, they'll stick in your memory?


The 'green sheets' serve several purposes.

By committing myself to make as economically and logically as possible I have to think through the morphology of the target language, and in practice this is easiest to accomplish if I can compare several sources (which don't have to be fullsize grammars). This means that I must identify those elements in the tables in the books that are truly regular, those that are minor variations and those that are truly irregular. The first should enter the tables, the second should be marked but leaving lists of relevant words outside the tables, and the third category should maybe have their own Green sheets, but definitely not be felt to pollute the 'regular' tables.

Thinking through these things and making the necessary choices of terminology and layout is a good background for learning the morphology of a language, but in my case not enough to remember everything. It has to be said that I only write the endings, both for space reasons and because I always use the sheets in situations where I have concrete words around. So I may choose some suitable words (verbs, adjectives or nouns) and write out complete tables for these, but I don't try actively to memorise long series of endings. Instead I keep the green sheets within sight whenever I read, translate or write a certain language until I don't need them anymore.

There is an added aspect to this, namely that I can try to keep a system across language boundaries: for instance I always use Latin case names, and I always put the cases in the same order: (vocative), Nominative, Accusative, Genitive, Dative, - and I do this even where there is another local tradition. It helps me to visualize the tables. I also use the standard signs for gender: Mars-sign♂, Venus-sign♀ (and a crossed-out circle for neuter). A final trick: I try to get the various forms for articles, adjectives and nouns one one single page - luckily I have a small handwriting. In every single grammar I have ever seen these are treated in separate places, but you get a much clearer picture by combining the tables into one.

And what to do with the rest of the morphology, the irregular things? Some things deserve a separate green sheet, such as a green sheet for the most common very irregular verbs or the pronouns, - here of course I write whole words everywhere. Some phenomena can also make a nice lists, such as common Russian masculine nouns with -a in nominative plural or the different cases used with Russian prepositions. But some things aren't practical to put on green sheets or ordinary lists. For instance it would be hopeless to list all masculine versus all feminine nouns on -ь . Things that must be learned word for word are more suited for word lists, provided that they can be annotated in a ultrasimple way (such as a gender sign).


Edited by Iversen on 06 May 2009 at 6:06pm

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Fasulye
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 Message 832 of 3959
06 May 2009 at 6:55pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
PL: Ek heff lang nix gedoen um mien Platt te wohren, - dat is Schiet. Ek heff all miene Bööker al leest, dat is lang vörbi, so ek mutt nu wat davun weerlesen. Spraken sünd wie lütten Kinder, man mütt se fodden bet se sülvst wat im Köhlschaff finnen können.


NL: ja, dat is natuurlijk "schiet", als men zo'n taal niet kan gebruiken. De twee ongebruikte talen zijn bij mij Spaans en Latijn, beiden zijn daardoor qua niveau achteruitgegaan. Het zou voor jou zinvol zijn om weer eens een reis naar Flensburg te maken en om daar nieuwe boeken in het Plattdüütsch te kopen. Het is meer zo volkstaal inhoudelijk gezien, vind je dat eigenlijk inhoudelijk interessant genoeg? Ik heb geen flauw idee, of er ook interessante website in het Noordduitse Platt te vinden zijn, want je schreef als dat die taal aan het uitsterven is. Mijn zwager (= de man van mijn zus) is met het Noordduitse Platt als ouderlijke taal opgegroeid. Hij had een paar jaar geleden een kleine toespraak in het Platt gehouden en was er zeer verbaast over, dat ik het moeiteloos kon begrijpen. Dat had hij helemaal niet verwacht.

Fasulye-Babylonia

Edited by Fasulye on 07 May 2009 at 6:30am



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