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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Fasulye
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 Message 633 of 3959
06 April 2009 at 12:17pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
Los diccionarios rojos son publicados por Gyldendal (no Guldenberg), une impresa danese que está totalmente dominante nel mercado dané


SP: !O perdón! Que error tipico de una persona que ancora no habla el danés. Vado a corregirlo immediatamente. Pues GYLDENDAL.

Fasulye-Babylonia

Edited by Fasulye on 06 April 2009 at 12:24pm

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Fasulye
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 Message 634 of 3959
06 April 2009 at 12:52pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
portunhol wrote:
¡Caray! Mis diccionarios y libros de gramática solamente ocupan dos estantes de mi estantería. ¿Cuánto tiempo te tardaste en acumular todo eso?


SP: Empecé a estudiar idiomas cuando yo era 14-15 años de edad. Y aún tengo unos pocos diccionarios de este periodo. Por el contrario, viene un montón de mis libros de mi tiempo en la Universidad de Aarhus, donde estudié el Francés al Instituto Románico, o del tiempo inmediatamente después de dejar el Instito, pero antes de abandonar las linguas en 1982. El resto los he comprado después de recomenzar mis estudios en 2006. Es decir que tengo una colección con muchos libros viejos y muchos libros nuevos, pero muy poco del tiempo entre 1982 y 2006.


SP: Has collecionado tus libros de idiomas en periodos cortes de de tu vida, en mi caso eso es muy diferente. Tengo todavía una gramatica del frances y del latín del collegio, pero los diccionarios de este tiempo no quería mantener, porque para mi es muy importante tener libros actuales. La mayoría de mis libros de idiomas (por ejemplo diccionarios) son de los anos a partir de 1992, cuándo comencé a estudiar la filología romanica en la universidad. Cuando diccionarios o otras libros de idiomas son demasiado viejos los deshago y compro nuevos. Por ejemplo no me gusta se no puedo encontrar el lenguaje de la computadora en un diccionario.

Fasulye-Babylonia
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Iversen
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 Message 635 of 3959
06 April 2009 at 1:15pm | IP Logged 
FR: Maintenant que j'ai pu voir ma collection sur un seul photo j'ai trouvé du moins un livre qu'il faut mettre à l'abri à l'arrière-coté de mon étagère, a savoir le 'Petit Larousse' des années 40 (je crois) que j'ai reçu d'une amie d'école de ma mère. Mais il est trop gros et trop vieux, et j'ai besoin de l'espace qu'il occupe pour mes deux petits dictionaires italiens. Or je ne veux pas des livre en italien entre les livres en Français, mais j'ai un grand dictionnaire Polonais qui physiquement ne peut pas être placé avec ses confrères Slavoniens parce qu'il est trop haut; il peut aussi bien être mis avec les Français qu'avec les Espagnols où il se trouve maintenant (comme le Polonais Frédéric Chopin qui a vécu à Mallorque et à Paris), alors je peux bouger l'Espagne un peu vers le droit et alors j'ai gagné les centimètres nécessaires pour mes deux nouveaux petits Italiens acquis à Milane. Étudier les languages peut être dur, mais trouver de la place pour ses nouveaux dictionaires peut l'être aussi.

-----

Just a rant in French about the art and science of making room for new dictionaries on my shelves.


Edited by Iversen on 06 April 2009 at 1:26pm

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Jar-ptitsa
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 Message 636 of 3959
06 April 2009 at 3:35pm | IP Logged 
It's truly a nice idea put those dictionayrs with the ones in the same language and languege's group, exactly like a library but of course then it's a problem to find the good place when one is too high and doesn't fit in the shelf. It seems one shelf is higher on your bookcase.

I think that I will do this with my books as well. I hadn't put them in a specific place, for example the dictionarys are not in one place, or the other things as well, but in different bookshelves or cupbaords. It's constantly a problem to maintain some order in my rooms and for example all the papers, books, homeworks, and other things are often in a mess. Before, all my toy animals as well, but now the most of those live in a new cupboard (glass) and it's great. Not all are in the cupboard, about 5 or 6 are on a chair but this aren't too many and I put them in the pretty thing which was for the bread, but my mother didn't use it and I have taken it some months ago without that she noticed. Anyway, I think that I will copy Iversen's books system when i've sufficient time.

Edited by Jar-ptitsa on 06 April 2009 at 4:35pm

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Iversen
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 Message 637 of 3959
08 April 2009 at 1:05am | IP Logged 
Spurred on by a couple of questions from Ellasevia I have spent a couple of hours reviewing the Romanian verbal system, based primarily on my trusty old Lombard grammar with the quasi-illegible typography and the excellent Cojocaru stand-alone grammar. Below I'm only going to comment on the present indicative (and subjunctive), but I would like to mention that some of the mains problems with this language are the many composed forms for futur, conditional and related tenses. I have marked the accents with bold typeface, ■ is an 'empty place' and I write in English because those that could read this stuff in Romanian don't need to read it. However it may be to hard to read for novices in this language, who haven't themselves been battling with its verbs. Sorry for any inconveniences:


Basically there are 4 conjugations as in Latin, but two of them are found in versions with suffixes. Below the four conjugations are numbered as in Latin, but already in Latin it would have been more logical to put conjugations I, II, III first (-āre, -ēre-, -īre) and the more heterogeneous no. IV (-ĕre, - the socalled consonantal group) at the end of the list. I have however followed the Romanian tradition on this point.

First the forms of the present indicative singular 1,2,3 person, plural 1,2,3 person PLUS 3 person subjonctive singular and plural (the other forms are the same as in the indicative), - NB: the numbering is mine:

Ia: verbs on -a without suffix: ■ , i, ă / ăm, aţi, ă // SUB: e
Ib: verbs on -a with suffix -ez-: ez■ , ez[i, ează / ăm, aţi, ează // SUB: eze

Note that 3. singular and plural are equal. I'll comment on -ează versus -eze later.
After a consonant + r or l you have the ending -u in 1.p. singular (also a continua, eu continuu)
After a vowel you (normally) have the ending -i in 1.p. singular (eg. a încheia, eu închei, but a întârzia, eu întârzii with two i's)
If you have c og g before -ez- then you keep those consonants, and therefore you write ch resp. gh before endings with ie or i

II: verbs on -ea (no suffix): ■ , i, e / em, eţi, ■ // SUB: ă

This group of verbs with -ea diphtong should be kept apart from verbs from I on -ea with a hiatus.

III: verbs on -e (without accent): ■ , i, e / em, eţi, ■ // SUB: ă

After a consonant + r or l OR after a vowel you have the ending -u in 1.p. singular

If the stem ends in 'n' then this n disappears in 2. person singular (eu pun, tu pui, ele pune).

IVa: verbs on -i without suffix: ■ , i, e / im, iţi, ■ // SUB: e
IVb: verbs on -i or with suffix -esc-: ez■ , ezi, ează / ăm, aţi, ează // SUB: eze

IVa: verbs on without suffix: ■ , i, ă / âm, âţi, ă // SUB: e
IVb: verbs on with suffix -esc-: esc■ , eşti, eşte / ăm, âţi, esc■ // SUB: ească   

The verbs ending in -i and -î ar so similar that I consider them as two parallel groups under the same conjugation, but this view is not shared by everybody . Note that it in IVa are 3. personal singular and plural that have the same ending.

After a consonant + r or l you have the ending -u in 1.p. singular. Here in IV this -u is also used after a vowel.

Romanian morphology is in many ways dominated by changes in consonants and vowels based on phonological rules. Most of these rules are either based on stress patterns or on the influence of following sound, in particular -i (even its weakened form as a palatalization of the preceding consonant). These rules also work outside the verbal system (and like all rules thay have their share of exceptions)

In many words you see vowel alternations based on accent or non-accent:

ă --> a
u --> o     
o --> oa
e --> ea (before ă)

For instance: a putea: eu pot .. noi putem

Take also a look at the verb 'a lucra' (to work):
a lucra /
eu lucrez   <------ e before an empty ending
tu lucrezi
el lucrează   <------ ea before ă
noi lucrăm
voi lucraţi
ei lucrează /
subj: el/ei lucreze <------ e before something else, here an e

But notice the different vowels in the two stressed forms from conjugation I: ăm (or even em) versus aţi. These alternations are fickle, - even the date of the loan in case of loanwords can mean that a word does or does not have them.

Other changes in both vowels and consonants are caused by a following -i (or sometimes -e):

t + i --> ţi    
s + i --> şi
d + i --> zi

At least the first two changes are fairly reliable, like the rule that c and g are pronounced palatalized before i and e, - but notice that before -ez- the 'hard' pronounciation is kept, even though this means that the writing has to change to ch and gh.

Notice that across all four conjugations there is a simple rule for forming the present subjunctive: it has only a special form in 3. person singular and plural,and it is the same form. If the corresponding indicative form ends in -ā then the subjunctive ends in -e and vice versa. This has however some consequences for the preceding sounds, as described below.

Last, but not least: how are you supposed to know which verbs from the I and IV' conjugation have a suffix and which haven't got one. The answer is unfortunately that you have to learn it, word for word (though there is a tendency for loanwords to use the suffixes, whereas inherited Latin words tend to avoid them).

It ought to be the simple duty of any decent dictionary to give that information with each relevant verb. But when I checked my dictionaries I had to acknowledge that the only one to do this properly is my fat monolingual dictionary from the Romanian Academy, 1958. The rest - My DA->ROM and ROM->DA from Gyldendal, the old ROM-->FR from Editura ştientifică 1970, the microscopical GER<-->ROM from Langenscheidt 1994 and the otherwise trustworthy ENG<-->ROM from Teora 1994 - all these leave the reader without a clue. Somehow I have a feeling that the authors don't believe that anyone might want to learn the Romanian language.


Edited by Iversen on 23 July 2009 at 4:42pm

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Fasulye
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 Message 638 of 3959
08 April 2009 at 7:05am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
Last, but not least: how are you supposed to know which verbs from the I and IV' conjugation have a suffix and which haven't got one. The answer is unfortunately that you have to learn it, word for word (though there is a tendency for loanwords to use the suffixes, whereas inherited Latin words tend to avoid them).

It ought to be the simple duty of any decent dictionary to give that information with each relevant verb. But when I checked my dictionaries I had to acknowledge that the only one to do this properly is my fat monolingual dictionary from the Romanian Academy, 1958. The rest - My DA->ROM and ROM->DA from Gyldendal, the old ROM-->FR from Editura ştientifică 1970, the microscopical GER<-->ROM from Langenscheidt 1994 and the otherwise trustworthy ENG<-->ROM from Teora 1994 - all these leave the reader without a clue. Somehow I have a feeling that the authors don't believe that anyone might want to learn the Romanian language.


EN: Yes, for irregular verb conjugations there should be given a hint as well in bilingual dictionaries. I guess that the mentioned ones are mainly written for Romanians living in Danmark, France, Germany and Great Britain. But that's no excuse because all people in those countries must be given a fair chance to learn the Romanian language well. Some information like it is given in my Latin bilingual dictionary with for example the Latin verb ponere, pono, posui, positum.

Fasulye-Babylonia

Edited by Fasulye on 08 April 2009 at 8:29am

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Iversen
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 Message 639 of 3959
08 April 2009 at 10:40am | IP Logged 
RO: În măsura în care este posibil, o bună dicţionare ar trebui să ofere toate informaţiile esenţiale pe care utilizatorul nu le poate ghici. Astă implică ca un dicţionar nemţesc trebuie să scrie gen la toate substantive, un dicţionar rus trebuie să specifice aspectele verbii, şi un dicţionar român ar trebui să specifice cel puţin sufix sau nu sufix pentru toate verbele din 1. şi 4. conjugare. În cea mai mare parte, este destul de un indiciu, de exemplu -ez sau -esc, dar de asemenea este OK a se referi la o serie de paradigme de padure sau de la partea din spate cartei. Mi-am dat seama că este mult de lucru pentru a face un astfel de dicţionar, şi desigur scriitorul dicţionarului pot pierde cu abur, dar dacă aţi cheltuit mii de ore să colecteze şi să traducă cuvinte, este stupid să nu facă muncă terminată.

FR: In cursu traditionali scholae mea, quattuor de Fasulye profertes formas totium verborum irregularum didicimus, et postea - quom resolvi latine sermo quam lingua activa rursus repperi - istud mihi valde utile ostendebat.

FR: J'ai visité la bibliothèque hier, et j'ai emprunté la grammaire néerlandaise de Routledge pour ma lecture des Pâcques, mais aussi un livre sur les chateaux de Loire, - malheureusement en anglais, mais il est difficile de trouver des livres non littéraires en français dans nos bibliothèques. Ma soeur, ma mère et moi-même, nous avons visité cette région en 2006, et pendant deux semaines nous avons en moyenne visité deux châteaux par jour, plus musées, plus églises, plus un jardin zoologique et un aquarium, plus des supermarchés (dont j'ai préféré Lidl parce qu'il n'y avait pas de musique de fond là) - et nous avons fait tout ça sans nous faire la querelle. Quant à la grammaire néerlandaise, elle m'a déjà informé sur les quatre emplois du petit mot vexant "er" qui est si difficile à employer correctement pour les étrangers. Mais je vais lire le reste du livre dans les prochains jours et peut-être donner quelques remarques après ma lecture.

-----------

A good dictionary should as far as posibble contain all those essential informations which the user can't guess. Which means that a German dictionary should indicate the gender of all nouns, a Russian dictionary should give the aspect of each and every verb (preferably also 'aspect pairs') and a Romanian should at least tell you whether verbs from the 1. and 4. have a suffix or not. It would be enough just to write -ez or -esc where applicable, as in my big and unwieldy Academy dictionary which was the only one in my collection to pass this test (plus an indication of particle in -s or in -(u)t for verbs from the 3. conjugation). The ordinary rules, including rules for sound changes, would then tell an advanced user the rest. References to a set of paradigms in the same book would also be nice. I know that it is hard work to collect and translate all the words for a dictionary, and I understand if the author(s) of a dictionary can become tired and fed up with this, but it is stupid not to finish the job.

In the traditional Latin course I had in school far ago we learnt the four forms mentioned by Fasulye of all the irregular verbs by heart. And this proved to be an exceedingly useful foundation for me, when I recently decided to revive Latin as a living language.

I went to the local library yesterday and borrowed a book about the Loire castles and palaces (unfortunately in English, - non fiction in French is rare in our libraries). My mother, sister and I visited the area three years ago, and during two weeks we saw an average of two castles per day, plus museums, churches, one zoo and one aquarium and several supermarkets (I preferred Lidl in Blois because it was devoid of background 'music'). I also borrowed a Dutch grammar from Routledge, where I at the first peek found a very useful description of the four different uses of the obnoxious little word 'er'. That book will be my principal Easter read.


Edited by Iversen on 08 April 2009 at 11:32am

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Fasulye
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 Message 640 of 3959
08 April 2009 at 11:01am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
FR: Quant à la grammaire néerlandaise, elle m'a déjà informé sur les quatre emplois du petit mot "er" vexant qui est si difficile à employer correctement pour les étrangers. Mais je vais lire le reste du livre dans les prochains jours et peut-être donner quelques remarques après ma lecture. I also borrowed a Dutch grammar from Routledge, where I at the first peek found a very useful description of the four different uses of the obnoxious little word 'er'. That book will be my principal Easter read.


NL: De regels voor het gebruik van het Nederlandse woord "er" zijn best ingewikkeld. We hebben er (daar komt ie!) toen op de universiteit begin van de jaren 80 uitgebreid aandacht aan besteed en wij kregen specifieke oefeningen om die taalregels goed te leren. Ik had dit onderwerp toen in de jaren 80 grondig bestudeerd, en vervolgens heb ik vanzelf een taalgevoel voor het gebruik van het "er" ontwikkled zoals dat een native speaker ook heeft. Dus ik hoef niet meer over een regel natedenken, maar ik kan mijn eigen taalgevoel raadplegen. Dat is een voorbeeld ervan dat mijn Nederlands op "native level" ligt.

Fasulye-Babylonia



Edited by Fasulye on 08 April 2009 at 11:02am



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