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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 3465 of 3959
10 December 2013 at 12:14pm | IP Logged 
DU: Ik las een paragraaf in mijn oude boek over de menselijke prehistorie gisteren, namelijk het gedeelte dat verteld over de reactie op de eerste ontdekkingen van menselijke beenderen met de beenderen van uitgestorven dieren in ongestoorde geologische lagen. Vergeet niet: dit gebeurde lang voordat de ontwikkelingstheorieën algemeen werden aanvaard, en waar zelfs de geleerden geloofden in de vloed, en de onveranderlijkheid van de diersoorten. Zelfs de grote Cuvier viel in dit val, en de even grote geoloog Lyell verwierp ook de bevindingen, totdat hij had gezien dat er inderdaad onaangeroerde aardestraten was en niet slechts gemengde bodemlagen. Maar de meeste geleerden zaten veilig in hun ivoren torens en vertrouwden op de Bijbel.

Er zijn ook posters met de uitgestorven hominiden en prehominiden, die bekend waren in 1954 toen het boek werd geschreven. En het is interessant dat de auteur hier met de generieke namen Paranthropus en Pithecanthropus opereert. Paranthrapus is sindsdien opgenomen in Australopithecus (de 'robuuste' australopithecinen) en Pithecanthropus werd reklassificeert in onze eigen geschlacht, Homo. Dit zijn bijvoorbeeld de Peking- en Java-mensen, nu allebei reclassificeerd als Homo erectus.

In the bus-back-home-from-work yesterday I read one chapter in my old book about the history of man, namely the one that described the research done by amateurs before evolution became commonly accepted as the only viable explanation of the paleontological finds. In those days most people believed that Earth was a few thousand years old, and that any old finds had to be leftovers from the great deluge described in the Bible. Even preeminent scientists like Cuvier and Lyell summarily dismissed research reports from eager amateurs who claimed that they had found human remains together with bones of rhinos, cave bears and elephants in digs in Europe - although Lyell changed his meaning on the spot when he got the chance to see such an excavation and with his own eyes could ascertain that the strata containing the bones actually were old, deep and untouched. Several generations of stubborn and uninterested scholars had to physically die out before the idea about a past fauna vastly different from the present one (and millions of years old) was accepted.

Which by the way reminds me of the role of the doctors in the olden days. The way medicine worked until recently it was probably more dangerous to receive treatment from a doctor than to confide in the local witch. And it is a little-known fact that patients were more likely to die in Florence Nightingale's field hospitals during the Crimean war than they were if left on the battlefield. And Semmelweis was ridiculed and driven to insanity when he suggested that surgeons who didn't care to wash their hands before they operated actually were killing their patients.

So maybe it isn't too surprising that reports from amateurs about human bones mixed with bones of elephants and rhinos and hyenas and cave bears and other critters in digs in France and other European countries were ignored by the scholars of the day, who didn't yet have all the facts about geology and paleontology we have amassed since then. And of course even I as an amateur can spot outdated elements in a book from 1954 (published in Dutch 1958). For instance the genus names Paranthropus and Pithecanthropus ('monkey man') aren't used today. The Paranthropus samples has been reclassified as robust australopithecines, and 'Pekin man' and 'Java man' and co. (the pithecanthropoi) are now seen as fullfledged albeit early humans, i.e. members of the genus Homo (in both cases Homo erectus). And the Neanderthals aren't any longer seen as mere bloody club-wielding cave-dwelling neanderthals - though in some cases modern scholars have been too politically correct to take ad notam that this human species was utterly conservative, wielded clubs (and spears), lived in caves and apparently totally lacked the knack for making art which their sapiens successors showed. However that being said, early Homo sapiens also seems to have been a conservative and rather unimaginative bunch.

Edited by Iversen on 13 December 2013 at 5:13pm

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 Message 3466 of 3959
10 December 2013 at 8:41pm | IP Logged 
I have now read a couple of chapters more in my historic human history book, and great things have happened in those chapters. One broken old man has been dug up in the Neanderthal, but the influental German patologist Virchow promptly declared that it was a modern human with a number of malformations due to physical illnesses. Similar explanations surfaced when the 'hobbit' (Homo floresiensis) recently was excavated in a cave on the Indonesian island Flores. And science certainly needs its sceptics, but in the case of herr Virchow the ultrasceptical stance became ridiculous as more and more skeletons were found around Europe. Later on the first 'Java man' was found by the enterprising Dubois, who came to first Sumatra (no luck) and later Java specifically to search for the missing link between ape and man. And in China a man named Davidson Black noticed some human bones in Chinese farmacies and he went on to find 'Pekin man', which he dubbed as Sinanthropus. The next step must be that Dart finds his baby in South Africa - maybe that will happen tomorrow.

GER: Es ist wirklich seltsam, dass gerade Virchow so bereitwillig die Rolle als Bösewicht und Vollidiot der Wissenschaft übernahm, denn er war eigentlich hoch angesehen als Pathologe. Diejenige, die seine sonstige Aktivitäten nachverfolgen möchten, können dies im Berliner Medizinhistorisches Museum tun, wo es allerlei menschliche Krankheiten zur Schau gestellt werden. Dieses gruselige und sehr unterhaltsame Museum wurde von Virchow gestiftet.

FR: Encore plus étrange est le fait que le baron Cuvier, qui était un vrai pionnier de la paléontologie et un excellent connaisseur des animaux modernes (surtout sous la forme de squelettes), ait catégoriquement refusé de reconnaître qu'il pût même être question d'hommes préhistoriques. Ceux qui désirent voir l'héritage de Cuvier d'un coté plus flatteur sont priés de se diriger à Paris pour y visiter le Musée d'histoire naturelle au Jardin des Plantes, établi le 10 juin 1793 par un décret de la Convention nationale avec Cuvier comme le plus eminent parmi ses 12 professeurs.

GER: Schließlich sollten diejenigen, die schöne Neandertaler-Knochen und Rekonstruktionen sehen möchten, auf jeden Fall das Museum in dem Neandertal (ohne 'h') besuchen, wie ich einmal während einer Winterurlaub in der Ruhr-gebiet tat. Ich habe gelesen, dass es jetzt auch ein Museum an dem wichtigen Fundort im der Höhle Krapina in Kroatien gibt, aber dieses Museum habe ich noch nicht besucht. Allerdings hatte ich einst eine interessante Begegnung mit einem echten Neandertaler in Zagreb. Ich hätte dies gerne auf Kroatisch geschrieben, aber dazu bin ich leider nicht fähig, so stattdessen kriegt ihr es auf Esperanto:

ESP: Mi legis en mi Lonely Planet ke la Naturhistoria Muzeo en Zagrebo havis multon da bonegaj Neandertalaj restaj el diversaj lokoj en Kroatio, sed tie ne estis multe por vidi en la eksponaĵoj. Ĝi surprizis min, do mi petis gardiston kie ili estus. Li eltiris min al ĉambro plena de sapiensoj, kaj post mallonga malbonintence, mi estis metita ĉe tablo kune kun (se mi memoras) du oficistoj kaj unu kranio. "Kiel vi vidas, ke ĉi tio estas Neandertala?" demandis unu, kaj mi designis la tipajn karakterizaĵojn - kiel brovajn arkojn, la plilongigitan cerboskatolon kaj la mankon de mentono, kaj ĉi tiu evidente estis sufiĉe bonaj responsoj, ĉar mi ne estis senprokistre forpelita. Anstataŭe ni havis longan diskuton pri la karakterizaĵoj de la speĉio, kaj lin min diris ekzemple ke la skeletoj neandertalaj NE havis pli lezojn ol similaj Homa sapiensa skeletoj - kiu kontraŭdiras unu ofta pretendon al apogo de la aserton, ke la neandertaloj havus aparte fatalajn ĉasadajn teknikojn. Estis speciala sento je mi sidi kun kompleta kaj 100 % aŭtenta kranio de Neandertalo en mia mano, diskutanta kun realaj specialistoj temojn kiel ekzemple la situon de la punkto en la bazo de la kranio kie la kapo estas alfiksita al la koloka kaj la rolon (kaj laŭgradan malaperon) de la saĝoj dentoj!

SP: He también visto un largo video en Youtube sobre la historia del hombre, llamado "Los origenes de la Humanidad 1/3".

Edited by Iversen on 12 December 2013 at 10:13am

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Iversen
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 Message 3467 of 3959
14 December 2013 at 8:04am | IP Logged 
So my last message in this thread was December 10? Gosh, and already it is buried so far down in the Log section that I hardly can find it myself. I have worked with a fair number of languages the last couple of days, but if we start with my Dutch human history then the Neanderthals are now gone, the mammoth is dead as a dodo and the Ice age in Europe has retreated to the Polar cap. But here halfway through the book the venerable old cities in the Middle East haven't been mentioned yet - and I'm not sure how much was known in 1954, when the book was published in German. FOr instance Çatalhöyük wasn't found until 1958. Jericho was however known, and the venerable old age of places like Byblos and Damascus was also known.

In the evening I read one lesson in my old Polish textbook, put my summary of the present of Polish verbs on on half green sheet (the rest will be reserved for the past tense and the infinite forms), I did Irish worldlists based on words culled from harry Potter, I used the description of Marie Antoinette's room at Schönbrunn as a retranslation exercise (with just one dictionary lookup: sfeșnic (candelabre, candle holder)) and I watched 'Parlamentet' on Norwegian NRK1.

I'll write some more about these activities in the respective languages, but I have one hopefully minor job to do first.
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 Message 3468 of 3959
15 December 2013 at 12:40pm | IP Logged 
DU: Op dit moment ek luistere naar nederlandse wetenschaapvideos in de series "De wereld leert door", en op mijn stomgestellte TV is er films vanuit de series "How the univers works" op het Science Channel met deense ondertitels. "Cruithne" werd zojuist genoemd. Dit object werd op QI wie de Aarde z'n tweede maan genoemt, maar eigentlijk is het geen maan - maans zijn wie honden: ze leven met hun eigenenaren en kreisen rond hen als je wandelt door een landschap. Cruithne is wie een kat: die loopt rond in de buurt en bezoekt maar zijn 'eigenaar' om te worden geaaid en gevoed, en hoewel ze duidelijk de kleinere is, denkt ze dat het is jouw wat is een gast in je eigen woning!

I have transferred my Polish verb list from my Swan grammar to a green sheet - actually the whole present only takes up half a page so I have room on the other half for the past and the other forms, but I haven't compiled that part yet. As I have written earlier I have basically inverted the order of the groups and messed them up, and as suggested by mr. Swan I only quote the infinitive and the 1. & 2. person of the singular. Btw. Polish is one of the few major languages which aren't covered by the Verbix site, but there are several sites specialized in Polish on the internet, like tastingpoland and polishconjugation.

My list (with added comments) looks as follows:

----------------

ać --> am, asz: verbs with -m in the 1.p.sing. (Swan p, 233f). The -m is probably the original consonant, but in other verbs it has disappeared and the preceding wowel has been nasalized. Apart from być ('to be') all verbs in this group have infinitives on -ać or -ieć, and there are few weird consonant or vowel changes:

czekać > czekam czekasz (await)
dać > dam dasz (give)
mieć > mam masz (have) ... only one with 'ie' in the infinitive and 'a' in the present

umieć > umiem umiesc (know (how to/some subject))
wiedzieć > wiem wiesz (know something)   ... simplification in the present forms

być > jestem jestesz jest | jesteśmy jesteście są (be) ... unexpected 3.p.plur. and three different stems involved

----------------

ić --> (i)ę, isz: thematic vowel 'i' (Swan p. 226ff)

palić > palę palisz (smoke)
lecieć > lecę lecisz (sly) ... an extra 'e' in the infinitive, otherwise like palić

nosić > noszę nosisz (carry) ... consonant change in the 1.p.sing. *
wosić > wożę wosisz (transport) ... consonant change in the 1.p.sing.
czcić > czczę czcisz (worship) ... consonant change in the 1.p.sing.
czyścić > czyczczę czyśzc... consonant change in the 1.& 2. p.sing.

*dental stem changes according to Swan (p. 229):
t >ć c,   d > dź dz,   s > ś sz,   z > ź ż,   st > ść szcz,   zd > źdź żdż

kupić > kupię kupisz (buy)
spać > spię spisz (sleep) ... unexpected 'a' in the infinitive

stroić > stroję stroisz (trim, tune)
stać > stoję stoisz ... unexpected 'a' in the infinitive

----------------

yć --> ę, ysz: thematic vowel 'y' (Swan p. 226ff) - "underlying velar stems (k,g,ch)" which are transmogriffed into "the same hushing consonant (cz, ż, sz, respectively)". The 'k' thing is represented by uczyć, and you only see the postulated 'k' in derivations like "samouk" (self-taught scholar). So who cares? Learn the verb as a verb with a modern stem in "cz" with a thematic "y" vowel, and learn "samouk" as an irregular formation - that's my alternative to Swan's approach.

uczyć > uczę uczysz (teach)
parzyć > parzę parzysz (scorch)

----------------

(..)c --> ę esz: infinitive in 'c' and consonant changes (Swan 224f) - velar consonant stems, where an underlying 'k' or 'g' has choked the usual 'ć'. Thematic vowel 'e' (and that's so for all types from now on so I won't mention it again):

piec > piekę piekesz (bake)
moc > mogę mo ż esz (be able to) ... notice the consonant change

stems with velar + nasal consonant:

biec > biegnę biegniesz

----------------

ąć --> e esz: infinitive in 'c' and consonant changes (Swan 224f) - nasal consonant stems, where an underlying 'n' or 'm' has nasalized the vowel in the infinitive.

dąć > dmę dmiesz (puff one's lips)
piąć się > pnę się, pniesz się (clamber)
wziąć > wezmę weźmiesz (take) ... notice the consonant change in the 2. person

----------------

ść or źć > t/d/z + ę iesz (Swan 223f). Dental stems (d,t,z) where the infinitive ending has been affected - and mostly also the consonant of the 2. p.sing (and its
followers': 3.p.sing and 1-2.p.plur.). Even cases of vowel alternations.

pleść > plotę pleciesz (braid)
wieść > wiodę wiedziesz (lead)
nieść > niosę niesiesz (carry)
gryść > gryzę gryziesz (bite)

znaleźć > znajdę znajdziesz (find)

dental + nasal in the stem:

paść > padnę padniesz (fall)
grząźć > grzęznę grzęźniesz (sink)    ... notice the 'ą' in the infinitive and the ę in the other forms

----------------

rzeć > rę rzesz (Swan 225f). Rare 'liquid stems', according to Swan with stems in r or ł, and actually ł appears in the past tense so you can't just ignore it. But in the infinitive and the present you see an 'l' instead:

pleć > pielę pielesz (weed) .. an alternative infinitive "pielić" exists
umrzeć > umrę umrzesz (die)

----------------

ać > [j]ę [j]esz (Swan 219ff). Swan sees a 'j' here, but in practice you see a plethora of consonant changes instead - and in few cases where you actually do see an 'j' in the stem of the infinitive Swan claims that there really is a collapsed 'jj' in the other forms. Whereas I just rejoice in a rare case of something that looks simple and regular in a language where the exception is the rule.

krajać > kraję krajesz (slice) ... yeah - if just all Polish verbs looked like that!

mazać > mażę mażesz (smear)
pisać > piszę piszesz (write)
deptać > depc(z)ę depc(z)esz (trample)

Various vowel changes:

chcieć > chcę chcesz (want) ... if 'i' is seen as belonging to a consonant "ci" this could actually be analyzed as a consonant change
ssać > ssę ssiesz

----------------

wać --> ę esz (Swan 219f). The volatile 'w' types (my name):

dawać > daję dajesz (give)
dziękujować > dziękuję dziękujesz (thank)
dokonywać > dokonuję dokonujesz (accomplish)

----------------

ć > [j]ę [j]esz (Swan 221). Other cases with 'simplified' infinitives (and sometimes the missing link actually is a 'j'):

brać > biorę bierzesz (take)
mdleć > mdleję mdlejesz (faint)
pić > piję pijesz (drink)

simplified infinitives with added consonant changes (cfr. the consonant stem types):

isć > idę idziesz (walk somewhere)
moć > mogę możesz (be able to)
słać > ścielę ścielęsz (make bed) ... notice the additional change from s to ś

and now for something completely different...

Edited by Iversen on 15 December 2013 at 12:50pm

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Iversen
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 Message 3469 of 3959
16 December 2013 at 11:45pm | IP Logged 
Due to a discussion in another thread I have spent a fair amount of time this evening reading about Indian writing systems ... and almost as much on writing my plaidoyer in the thread so there my allotted time for HTLAL updating vanished in a puff of smoke. Consequently I'll just mention that I'm looking for a replacement to my old Dutch human history book in the bus back home from work, but today I survived on a text in Greek about Ancient Greek. However I have done something else related to Dutch today: reading about the Dutch museum card and some of the museums down there ... and discovering to my dismay that the Nusantara Museum in Delft closed one year ago due to failing visitor numbers after a major refurbishing. Unfortunately it's partly my fault - I haven't visited it since 1985. But I liked it back then. Goodbye Nusantara.

Apart from that I have found an unread issue of "вокруг света" on a shelf, bought in 2008 where I was utterly unable to read it (and there are still words in it which I can't even look up in my dictionary). It will be the logical successor to the Russian text collection about Babylon on which I have been feasting for several weeks.

And now I have to do some studying...

Edited by Iversen on 17 December 2013 at 1:14am

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Iversen
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 Message 3470 of 3959
18 December 2013 at 12:30pm | IP Logged 
My sleeping patterns the last couple of days have been erratic because I had to get up early Monday morning for a meeting, and one of the delayed effects of this is that I was awake from 4 to 7 o'clock today. And as a result I got the unplanned chance to watch a number of interesting TV programs. This included a Norwegian program from the Orkney Islands (maybe a future travel destination?), which nicekly complement Neil Oliver's first program about the vikings on Swedish TV a day or two ago, Terry Jones about the Roman barbarians who met their match in first the Parthians, later the Sassanids of Persia (a nice complement to my study of a book about the Persian empire) and last, but not least a program on discovery World about the Snowball hypothesis, which I have written extensively about in this thread. All these programs were totally or partly in English, which illustrates the problem with balancing my language learning urges with other interests. At least the two first programs were in 'mild Scottish' rather than Southern Sassenach.

And while watching TV I studied a Polish text about the division lines between different regional faunas, as established in the 19. century by people as 'Karel' Darwin, Huxley and the less famous Philip Sclater, followed by several short texts in my newly refound вокруг света. But it seems to me that it is fairly hard to read, and the fact that I several times stumbled over words which also were missing from my dictionary seems to corroborate this - and of course I don't have a google translate to help me.

NO: Orkneyøyene var opprinnelig bebodd av pikterne ('blåmennene' fra Skottland), men ble erobret av norske vikinger. Senere ble Danmark og Norge som bekennt forenet, og i den dansk-norske tiden ble øyene satt i pant til den britiske monarken for en medgift. Lånet ble aldri innløst, og i dag er øyene britiske (og de ​​blir trolig skotske, hvis Skottland løsriver sig). Det ble lenge snakket et nordisk språk på øyene, som kallades Norn, men det er nå utdødd. Men det synes å være mange andra fornminner tilbake fra norrøn tid. Jeg bemerket at Håkan IV av Norge døde der borte, og jeg er litt stolt over at eg visste hvem birkebeinane var - det ble faktisk ikke forklart i sendingen.

SCO: Neil Oliver actually stairtit his accoont oo the vikings lang before the viking eild, that is, wi the well-aff bronze eild fowk in Denmark and thare puir cuisins in Norway who didnae have found oil yet an become stinkin rich. He veesited the Hjortspringboot in Denmark whilk wis a forebeir o the vikings ships datin from 300 bC. He veeseted auld rock carvings in Norway, an he veeseted Birka in Sweden, whare common fowk an beasts ware hanged in trees an left tae rot as a gift tae Odin. Wall, Odin even hinged himself fair 9 days and 9 nightes, but he leeved tae tell the tale - the lave didnae. An than the viking age started wi a bit of plunnering closters in Britain (Lindisfarne, Iona)- an aye, the monks compleened an channered an pewleed so that the guid name of the visitors wis blemished in the maist despicable manner! So the vikings simply had to return to hae a stern wird wi the monks an tell them thare jonick braith aboot the matter. And then England was winkished by the sons o Regnar Lodbrog (Ivar Baneless an his breither) and winkished again by Svend Forkbeard and then by William the Bastart, wha wis descended frae vikings but now wisnae called a viking acause he now spake French ... but aw that wisnae pairt o this first installment frae Mr. Oliver.

Edited by Iversen on 18 December 2013 at 1:46pm

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Iversen
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 Message 3471 of 3959
21 December 2013 at 3:46pm | IP Logged 
SW: Jag ble inspirerad av tråden "Is Swedish difficult to understand ?" til att söka material på internettet vidrörande dansk förståelse av svenska språket och vice versa. Och jag hittade en skrämmande studie, som visade att förståelsen över Öresund är FALLAT de senaste åren – även om det nu kör tåg varje tjugo minuter över Öresundsbron ock alla kan titta tv från hinsidan (i både riktnigarna). Studien baserades på frågor till gymnasiumelever i Köpenhamn och i Malmö, och man kan väl tro att situationen skulle vara ännu mer värre om man frågat ungdomar från Lemvig och Luleå. Men de unga från Köpenhamn besöker fast aldrig Sverige – 88 % anger en gång om året eller mer sällan, medan blandt de unga från Malmö 77 % säger ett besök eller mindre i Danmark varje år. 79% svenskere kunne tänka sig at arbete eller studera in Danmark, men kun 13% danskare kunne tänka sig at arbeta/studere i Sverige. 66% svenskar ville gärna läre sig danska, mens 67% danskare inte tycker om att lära sig svenska. Men se upp! man måste komma ihåg att Köpenhamn är mycket störra än Malmö. Om du frågade de unga köpenhamnar om de skulle bry sig om att flytta till Hvide Sande eller Tarm i Vestjylland, skulle det förmodligen vara ännu färre ja-sägare. Realiteten er at danskar inte läser svenska böcker og de ser inte svensk TV, men de unga från Malmö ser heller inte dansk TV og de läser definitivt inte danska böker på danska (97% mindre end en gång pr. år).

59% af de unga danskare tror att svenskare förstår danska gott eller mycket gott. Haha – unga svenskar säger att dom förstår inte ett dugg af danska (92% svarer 'svårt' eller 'mycket svårt'). Men det vett inta de danska ungdomar, for de pråtar ju i praktiken inte alls med svenskare! På frågan " Hur upplever du att danskar förstår svenska?" svarer 47% "Varken eller", mens "34" säger "brå" (2 % ennda mycket brå). Faktisk sägor 31% af danskarne "mitt imellan", 20% lätt eller mycket lätt, 42% svårt eller mycket svårt. Vilket i princippet är bättre enn i et studie från 2000 (80% svårt/mycket svårt). Men i 2000 fikk danskarne testet förståelsen, og det kann ha givet dem en mer realistisk syn på sin kompetens.

Ock i ställat för grannspråkene pråtar man engelska, ser TV på engelsk ock lyssnar på anglofon musik…

For a comment in English please consult the aforementioned thread about the Swedish pronunciation.

Edited by Iversen on 21 December 2013 at 10:48pm

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Iversen
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 Message 3472 of 3959
22 December 2013 at 4:45pm | IP Logged 
SP: Como ya he mencionado en el hilo sobre nerdiness (como se llama esto en español?) he producido un montón de imprimados para las vacaciones de Navidad. Probablemente voy a escribir más sobre algunos de estos textos más tarde, pero permítadme dar un ejemplo de una de las lenguas referenciadas. Y sorpresa, sorpresa, he elegido la idioma español.

El primer texto describe la historia de la compañia de las tranvías de Zaragoza. Porque Zaragoza? No sé, quizá una fluctuación de mecánica cuántica ha afectado el proceso de selección entre los hallazgos de la búsqueda de Google. De las tranvía mas adelante con el covento de la Victoria, el orden de minimos de la victoria de San Francisco de Paula (los minimos han un nombre maximo!) y el convento de la Victoria, seguido por la historia de Zaragoza. Después Burgos, "tierra de Castillos" y el museo de la Evolucion Humana en dicha ciudad. Y he descubierto que hay articulos scientificos en en la página web de este museo, y con hambre voraz descargué "Diversos aspectos sobre el #ADN" Atapuerca del Fémur XIII de la sima de los huesos" (parte I + II) y "Dmanisi trae de cráneo" (como se sabe, Damanisi es una localidad en Georgia donde señor Lordkipadnidze ha descubierto restos de los primos Homines ergaster fuera de Africa). Hay otros textos allí para mas tarde.

CAT: En Catalá vaig escollir alguns articles de portaleureka.com sobre la descodificació de antigues llengues escrites, com per exemple la descodificació de Grotefend de l'antiga escriptura cuneïforme persa, que combina a la perfecció en línia amb els meus estudis recents en la història de la regió, fins i tot en missatges anteriors en aquest fil.

RU: Самым неожиданным часть моей текстового коллекции, безусловно, является серия текстов на болгарском, сербском, хорватском и чешском - ни один из которых я говорю. Но я просто хочу посмотреть, сколько слов я могу понять в этих не-изученных языков.


Edited by Iversen on 22 December 2013 at 4:53pm



1 person has voted this message useful



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