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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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SII
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 Message 753 of 3959
24 April 2009 at 1:41am | IP Logged 
Quote:
Если она когда-либо удастся мне писать совсем правильное предложение на русском, я считаю, что должен праздновать.


Just as I :) In most cases your's Russian is understandable although there are many small and medium mistakes in it. One of your common problem is grammatical agreement between different parts of sentence. Another problem is adverbial participle: you use it very often but illegal ("И это не слишком быстро, что я начиная с этого мероприятия", for example).

Quote:
не получив один шок за другим. ---> (so that I) don't get one shock after another


In this context we don't use the word "шок" -- this is very... er... strong word. For exmple, "шок" is when you wake up and recognize that your house had crash and you were buried under its fragments :) But in your case it is better to use the word "удар", "потрясение" or "неожиданность". But I didn't understand not this part of the sentence but the previous part.

Quote:
ГЛОСС = http://gloss.lingnet.org/searchResources.aspx


Thank you. I ask about it so that I can understand which the gender needs to use. Formally ГЛОСС is masculine.

Quote:
И это не слишком быстро, что я начиная с этого мероприятия --> And it isn't exactly fast, that I have started with this arrangement (i.e. an audio source an a bilingual text in front of me). Is the following version better?
Я должен был начать работу с этой мероприятиeм гораздо быстрее (гораздо раньше).


Better, but it is incorrect too :) There are two right versions:

1) И это не слишком рано, что я начал с этого.
2) Я должен был [бы] заняться этим гораздо раньше.

The second version is better than the first ("это - этого" is the stylistic defect although gramatically this is absolutely correct).

Your mistakes are:

1) "И это не слишком быстро, что я начиная с этого мероприятия" -- incorrect using of adverbial participle. The adverbial participle uses for designation of additional action, or example: "Машина ехала, подпрыгивая на ухабах" (A car drive leaping on potholes, if I correct translate this to English). In this sentence the main action is "ехать" (drive) and the additional action is "подпрыгивать" (leap). But in your sentence is only one action: "начинать" (to start), and you must use the verb.

2) "Быстро" and "рано" have different sense. "Быстро" relates to speed (and to time but to time as measure of speed), "рано" relates to time. In your case you say about time so you must use "рано".

3) The word "мероприятие" isn't good in this context. Formally "мероприятие" is some formal arrangement, for example, a stockholders' meeting, a press conference, an action to increase quality of production etc. We often use this word in unformal sense, for example, we can say "мероприятие" in relation to evening party or birthday. But "мероприятие" don't use in your case. Unfortunately, I don't explain it more exact: my English is very bad for it :(

In your case it is better to omit the noun because we have the context from which we already knew all that we need to understand: "И это не слишком рано, что я начал с этого". In Russian very many such cases when we omit some words.

4) In second version you did the one formal grammatical mistake in the grammatical agreement: "с этой мероприятиeм". "Мероприятие" has the neuter gender so the pronoun must has the neuter gender too: "с этим мероприятием". And, as I wrote above, the word "мероприятие" don't use in this context, and you must use "раньше" instead of "быстрее" -- but there are not formal grammatical mistakes.

Also we often use the subjunctive mood: Я должен был бы заняться этим гораздо раньше. In your case all of two versions -- with and without "бы" (the subjunctive and the indicative moods) -- are absolutely equivalent. I myself usually use the subjunctive mood, some other Russians usually use the indicative mood is such cases -- this depends on locality where we are rose, ours parents, books which we read etc...

Edited by SII on 24 April 2009 at 1:49am

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SII
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 Message 754 of 3959
24 April 2009 at 2:08am | IP Logged 
Quote:
"Но если я не могу избежать художественной литературы, Булгаков не худшая U(---> худший выбор)."
Я подумал, не Булгаков, но позвольте мне влияние словом "литература", которая является женщиной слова - по-видимому я не могу найти свой приговор! Но в целом я считаю, что мой приговор начинают походить Российской фраз, и худшее промахом было реже.


All is understandable and all is incorrect :) For example, it is absolutely incorrect: "женщиной слова". "Женщина слова" is woman which follow her promise, oath :) You must say: "на меня повлияло слово "литература", которое женского рода". The words "позвольте", "приговор" are not correct in this case. For example, "приговор" is the judicial verdict, not the ordinary sentence.

Word "российский" is incorrect too: you must use "русский". Difference between they is that "российский" relates to Russia as state, to Russian government, army, science etc -- all which is in Russia but isn't relates only to Russian nation (in Russia live more than 100 nations) or to Russian language. Word "русский" relates to Russian language or Russian nation. For example, I am "русский [человек]", i.e. my nationality is Russian, and I am "российский гражданин", i.e. I am citizen of Russia. Sometimes these words use as synonims but usually such using is incorrect.

The last sentense you must say as "Но в целом я считаю, что мои предложения начинают походить на русские [фразы], и серьёзные ошибки/промахи случаются/встречаются реже". You make mistakes in the grammatical agreement and in the using of cases (and in the selecting of words, but in the first place I say about the grammatical mistakes).

In total, it is need for you to draw attention to use of Russian cases -- you make many mistakes with them. Probably it is helpful to do some exercises on using of cases. By the way, has Danish many cases similar to Russian? And how many verb's tenses in the language?

Edited by SII on 24 April 2009 at 2:19am

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Fasulye
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 Message 755 of 3959
24 April 2009 at 6:58am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
I took the test (which consists of isolated sinustones followed by tones from an electronic piano) and to my surprise I scored way below the treshold! Disaster! The end of the world. But then I found another test, where the answers were given after the test, and suddenly I saw the problem. Out of the first 16 notes there are 3 totally wrong and two precise guesses, - but the remaining 11 guesses were precisely ½ tone too high. Then there came a section with too low guesses, and then after a bit of confusion I stabilized my internal chamber tone and gave a series of correct guesses. This pinpoints the problem, namely that it isn't enough to be able to identify the level of the notes, but you also have to remember which level corresponds to which name. In the old days where I still played my instruments I had such a reference tone in my instruments, and I could immediately name even isolated tones. Now I'm 15 years older, which according to the scientist in itself implies a tendency to push the perceived notes upwards, and I haven't played for years, so now I need to correct the perceived level before I can produce correct guesses. But there is one interesting thing more, namely that my semi-absolute pitch is acquired as an adult, not inborn or learnt at an early age. And if you can learn to have something approaching perfect pitch, then you can also learn to deal with the tone levels of a tonal language in the same way that the natives do.


EN: Have I understood it right that "absolute pitch" means "absolutes Gehör"? Then I know what is meant by it. As I have no special music talent, I would never expect myself to have a phenomenon like absolute pitch. Therefore I need not test myself on that. But nevertheless, making music is an important hobby of mine and I enjoy it very much. By developing special fields of interest talent is not really necessary. And besides this I have no intention to learn a tonal language.

Fasulye-Babylonia

Edited by Fasulye on 24 April 2009 at 7:06am

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Iversen
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 Message 756 of 3959
24 April 2009 at 8:23am | IP Logged 
SII, thank you for your comments. I will have to study them later because I have to leave for my job now.

EDIT: I have been thinking about the thing with the missing agreements (and about possible changes in my methods in general).

I know cases fairly well from other languages (Latin, German..), so even though Russian is a bit more extreme in this respect cases as such aren't the problem. I think my working method may be part of the problem, in combination with the complicated way Russian uses its 7-8 cases. I write a few words in the webservice Lexilogos, then transfer them to the edit box, then the next few words, which I then transfer. Maybe I should rather write whole paragraphs in Lexilogos before I transfer them, so that I can see the whole text at once.

But apart from that Russian cases ARE complicated, - for instance it has many prepositions and they are sometimes combined with several possible cases in different situations. Subject predicats can also be found in both nominative and instrumental, according to the construction, and so forth, and I sometimes get caught up in all that.

When I spot an error I may also have a problem corecting it: I write the letters needed to correct one part of the problem in Lexilogos and transfer them, but forget to correct other connected words so that I loose the agreement in the process, - or maybe the logic of the sentence. This was even worse in the beginning before I had Lexilogos: I wrote my very first Russian contributions on paper, corrected them and wrote them in Word by picking out one letter at a time as 'symbols', and finally I tranferred the whole thing to the forum. Now at least I can write directly to my computer.

The situations where I see three translations in my dictionaries and choose the wrong one are difficult to solve just by a change of method, I'll have to absorb the idiomatic uses from texts, and I certainly haven't read enough in Russian yet (my local library only has 'art' literature (DA: "skønlitteratur") in Russian. I'll have to make some more print-outs from suitable Russian sources on the internet.

And finally: my liberal use of phrases with infinite verbs (participles, gerunds). It has something to do with the kind of Russian I want to write later, but still can't do without errors now. I think the best cure would be to make a large collection of such constructions from genuine sources, make hyperliteral translations of them, analyse them and categorize them according the uses which are described in my grammars, and then maybe I can internalize the rules that govern their use in Russian.


Edited by Iversen on 24 April 2009 at 12:17pm

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Iversen
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 Message 757 of 3959
24 April 2009 at 12:38pm | IP Logged 
Fasulye wrote:

EN: Have I understood it right that "absolute pitch" means "absolutes Gehör"?


GER: Das ist wahr, aber ich habe dieses Phänomen nicht so sehr erwähnt weil ich von Musik schreiben möchte (was ich natürlich gerne tue), sondern weil darin ich einige sprachbezogene Konsequenzen sehe, teils für diejenige die tonalen Sprachen studieren, teils weil ich darin eine Parallel sehe zur Diskussion um das 'Sprach-fenster' von Kinder. Es wird ja von einige Leuten behauptet, daß die Kleinkinder einige fähigkeiten besitzen die mit dem Pubertät verlorengehen, und wir Erwachsenen müssen dann mit weniger effizienten Methoden arbeiten wenn wir später Sprachen lernen möchten. OK, dann gibt es dieses 'absolutes Gehör' wo einige Forschungsresultaten darauf deuten, daß es genetisch bedingt ist ob man ein absolutes Gehör entwicklen kann oder nicht - kein wenn und aber! Aber dann sollten Chinesen und Vietnamesen genetisch anders sein als wir, und übrigens habe ich ein 'quasi-absoluten' Gehör nach meiner Kindheit entwickelt. Wenn dies nicht ein echtes absoluten Gehör ist weil nicht angeboren, was ist es dann? Und kann man dieses Prozeß damit vergleichen, eine Sprache 'zu spät' zu lernen, also nachdem die vermutete "Sprachmaschine" seine Rolle ausgespielt hat? Ich kann alle diese Fragen nicht gleich beantworten, aber versuche etwas mehr davon zu lernen.

-----

I have written about absolute pitch because I see some relations to language learning, not so much because of the obvious musical connections. It seems that Chinese peple are more likely to posses this faculty than Westerners, - how can this be combined with recent results that it is based on the presence of maybe just one gene? And if I can develop a working, though not perfect absolute pitch as an adult, is that then something that can be parallelized with the way adults laboriously learn languages after the time where the supposedly inborn 'language machine' of childen have grinded to an ignominous halt at the onset of puberty? So far I don't know, but there are some interesting topics to consider here.

By the way: right in this moment I'm doing some database work which doesn't demand too much brain activity, so I have donned my headphones and I am listening to a lecture by a neuroscientist named Aniruddh Patel, and though rather popular it has already contained some facts with far-reaching consequences. I will just mention a few:
1) the brain reaction to musical inconsistencies (for instance wrong notes in a chord) is practically indistingushable from the reaction to grammatical errors
2) music processing in the brain of skilled musicians involves centres otherwise used for language, including Broca's area.
.. however it is still possible to 'lose the language skill' without losing one's musical faculties, exemplified with the example of a Russian composer who became aphatic, but still could compose music.
Now (later in the lecture, edit II) there is a dancing parrot and another that tries to sing along in a Mozart opera. It appears that there is something called 'vocal learning', which no other monkey or ape can do, but we can, and parrots can (dolphins too). Vocal learning is defined as the ability to learn "complex sound patterns based on what you hear". Anybody at this forum will people know that this is an important part of learning languages, whether you prefer L-R, shadowing or casual interaction with other people.

The subject of music versus language in brain science is rapidly developing and still somewhat obscure, but there is certainly something to look out for here.

Mr. Patel's lecture
Another of his lectures here

Edited by Iversen on 24 April 2009 at 2:59pm

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SII
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 Message 758 of 3959
24 April 2009 at 1:36pm | IP Logged 
Iversen
Quote:
I write a few words in the webservice Lexilogos, then transfer them to the edit box, then the next few words, which I then transfer. Maybe I should rather write whole paragraphs in Lexilogos before I transfer them, so that I can see the whole text at once.


Maybe it is better to write Russian directly on keyboard in Word? Windows has many keyboard's layouts and you can switch them if need.

Quote:
I'll have to make some more print-outs from suitable Russian sources on the internet.


One warning: grammatical correctness of many internet texts is very low. Many Russians do many mistakes when write. Especially many mistakes in syntax (omitted commas, dashes etc).
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josht
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 Message 759 of 3959
24 April 2009 at 2:03pm | IP Logged 
SII wrote:
Iversen
Quote:
I write a few words in the webservice Lexilogos, then transfer them to the edit box, then the next few words, which I then transfer. Maybe I should rather write whole paragraphs in Lexilogos before I transfer them, so that I can see the whole text at once.


Maybe it is better to write Russian directly on keyboard in Word? Windows has many keyboard's layouts and you can switch them if need.



That's what I was going to recommend. I can't imagine trying to write anything by clicking one letter button at a time on the screen. There are plenty of Russian keyboard layouts for Windows, which are easy to install.

Here's a page which provides a number of different layouts, and full installation instructions: Russian keyboard layouts.
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Iversen
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 Message 760 of 3959
24 April 2009 at 2:38pm | IP Logged 
I should maybe mention that Lexilogos can be used from the keyboard, - it is not a question of picking single letters as I did in the beginning from the 'symbols' in Word, you can actually write several lines directly from the keyboard in Lexilogos, but I have just not used it like that. I'll try to do this instead of trying to composing my posts directly in the edit-window of the forum, using short sections from Lexilogos.

And yes, internet sources may be badly written. But I might find something I really want to read, unlike fictional literature - for instance the home page of the Paleontological Institute of Moscow was a real inspiration for me, unlike the book of Bulgakov which I have to force myself to read (and even more to listen to). Maybe I could try to read litterature backwards sentence by sentence, because that way I can sabotage the narrative line of the works, which is my principal problem with literature - I seriously do like the writing style of at least some authors, but I don't like being lured into the trappings of a fictive world.

On a more practical level: my Russian study has been something of a stop-go thing, but right now I'm in a 'go' period and I obviously want to get as much out of it as possible.


Edited by Iversen on 24 April 2009 at 3:09pm



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