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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 3761 of 3959
27 November 2014 at 1:10pm | IP Logged 
In the preceding message I quoted the first couple of sentences about the Jurassic from a number of Wikipedia versions. But the world doesn't end at the border of the Ingwäonian + High German Sprachbund, and it irks me to leave a job unfinished so here the series continues – with thanks to all the Wikipedians of this world. What did we do before Wikipedia was invented?

English: The Jurassic (/dʒuːˈræsɪk/; from Jura Mountains of the Alps) is a geologic period and system that extends from 201.3± 0.6 Ma (million years ago) to 145± 4 Ma; from the end of the Triassic to the beginning of the Cretaceous.

Simple English: The Jurassic is the second geological period in the Mesozoic that began 201.3 million years ago, and ended at 145 million years ago. Before it was the Triassic. It was followed by the Cretaceous. (please notice the ambiguous reference of the relative 'that')

Ah'm sairy, but the Scots wikipediuns didnae take time tae write a Wikipedia article aboot the Jurassic.

Icelandic: Júra er jarðsögulegt tímabil sem nær frá endalokum trías fyrir 200 milljón árum til upphafs krítar fyrir 146 milljón árum. (…) Júra er miðtímabil miðlífsaldar og er betur þekkt sem tímabil risaeðlanna. Upphaf tímabilsins miðast við trías-júrafjöldaútdauðanum

Danish: Jura er den periode, der strækker sig fra 199,6 til 145,5 millioner år siden.

Swedish: Jura var en geologisk period i den mesozoiska eran, för ca 208-146 miljoner år sedan

Norwegian Bokmål: Jura er den midterste perioden i jordens mellomalder, og kalles tidvis for «reptilenes tidsalder». Den begynte med en trias–jura masseutryddelse for 199,6± 0,6 millioner år siden og sluttet for 145,5± 4 millioner år siden

Norwegian Nynorsk: Jura er ein geologisk periode som starta for 199,6 ± 0,6 millionar år sidan og varte til 145,5 ± 4 millionar år sidan, frå slutten av trias til byrjinga av kritt. Jura utgjer den mellomste perioden i mesozoikum, (…) Starten på perioden er markert av den store trias-jura-utryddinga

And what can we learn from that? Well, first and foremost that those who wrote the two Norwegian versions didn't read each other's contributions. Second, that the Swedes have rewritten history - as befits a nation that also has rewritten Pippi Långstrump (her father is no longer allowed to refer to his colonialist past as a 'negerkung'). The Danish article is abysmally short, and I'm deeply ashamed of my lazy compatriots. But not ashamed enough to extend the stub.

And now the Latinists and romantics:

(Neo)Latin: Aevum Iurassicum est aevum geologicum quod coepit a fine aevi Triassici (id est abhinc circiter 199.6 ± 40 centena milia annorum) et finem habuit abhinc 1455 centena milia annorum, cum aevum Cretaceum inciperet.

Galician: Na escala de tempo xeolóxico, o Xurásico é o período da era Mesozoica do eón Fanerozoico que está comprendido entre 199 millóns e 600 mil e 145 millóns e 500 mil anos atrás, aproximadamente. O período Xurásico sucede o período Triásico e precede o período Cretáceo, ambos da súa era

Portuguese: Na escala de tempo geológico, o Jurássico é o período da era Mesozoica do éon Fanerozoico que está compreendido entre 199 milhões e 600 mil e 145 milhões e 500 mil anos atrás, aproximadamente. O período Jurássico sucede o período Triássico e precede o período Cretácico, ambos de sua era.

Castilian (Spanish): El Jurásico, una división de la escala temporal geológica, es el sistema y período geológico central de la Era Mesozoica, que comenzó hace 199,6 ± 0,6 millones de años y acabó hace 145,5 ± 4,0 millones de años

Asturian: El Xurásicu ye un periodu de la era Mesozoica que dura dende hai 205 millones d'años, fecha na que fina'l Triásicu, hasta los 144 millones d'años, onde entama'l Cretácicu.

Catalan: El Juràssic és el període geològic que abasta el temps entre el final del Triàsic, fa 201,3 ± 0,6 Ma (milions d'anys), i l'inici del Cretaci, fa 145 ± 4 Ma

Occitan: Lo Jurassic es un periòde geologic que s'esten entre aperaquí -201 e -145 million d'ans; es a dire, entre la fin del Triassic e lo començament del Cretacèu.

French: Le Jurassique est une période géologique qui s’étend d'environ -200 à -145 millions d'années.

Piemontese: Ël Giuràssich a l'é un perìod dla stòria dla Tèra, ch'a va da 200 milion d'agn fa a 145 milion d'agn fa. A l'é ël second perìod ëd l'era scondaria, apress ël Triàssich e prima dël Cretass.

Italian: Il Periodo Giurassico si estende da 199,6 ± 0,6 a 145,5 ± 4,0 milioni di anni fa (Ma),[1] ovvero dalla fine del Triassico all'inizio del Cretaceo.

Nella Wikipedia sardu purtroppo non si scrive niente

Romanian: Jurasicul este o perioadă geologică care începe acum 199,6 ± 0,6 milioane de ani și se termină acum 145,4 ± 4,0 milioane de ani.




Edited by Iversen on 01 December 2014 at 1:31pm

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Iversen
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 Message 3762 of 3959
01 December 2014 at 10:43am | IP Logged 
I have been on a family weekend without internet access, and in the meantime the number of visitors to this thread has jumped to 3034921 - from below 3 mio. last week! I had expected that to happen in a week's time or so. With so many visitors I ought to find something interesting and informative to write about, but family weekends aren't conducive to serious language studies.

I should however mention on relevant fact, namely that my mother's hornbeam ('avnbøg' in Danish) has shed its abundant foliage, and now we can watch Astra satellite TV again. But after a summer with zero contact there was some trouble with the receiver, and I had to start a channel search from scratch. The first time (several years ago) the list ended up with 13 major German Channels at the start, then some trash and then again some useful German channels. But this time the channels came in an almost haphazard order, and I spent several hours kicking out spam channels, god channels, children's channels, literally hundreds of coded pay TV channels and all but one version of the main German channels. OK, there may be different topics on each local NDR or WDR sender for an hour each day, but my mother already feels that 90 channels (with around two thirds in German) is somewhat overwhelming - especially when she also has got around 40 cable channels, which contrary to the Astra channels mostly speak Danish and also can be watched during the summertime. So I have cut it down town to 91 channels, including one that should have been kicked out.

GER: Der zweifelsohne beste der 90 Kanäle ist Phoenix, der meistens Dokumentarfilme auf Deutsch ausstrahlt. Meine Mutter und ich haben Samstag den Rhein vom Bodensee bis die fünf oder so Niederländischen Mündungen gefolgt, und wir haben auch einige andere Programme dort gesehen. Meine Mutter mag tatsächlich Phoenix so sehr, daß ich erwarte Astra noch auf Kanal Nummer 5 eingestellt zu finden, wenn ich nächstes Mal meine Familie besuche. Und die andere Deutsche Sender? Vielleicht, aber ohne Garantie, daß irgend jemand sie inzwischen gesehen haben. Es gibt darüber hinaus auch Programme in andere Sprachen, sowie Polnisch, Spanisch, Französisch und Englisch (meistens 'News', aber auch Programme aus Korea (Arirang), Japan (NHK) und Rusland (Russia Today) uzw)... und dazu noch einige Sprachen, die je nur mit einer Kanal repräsentiert sind, darunter Niederländisch/Flämisch (BVN), Russisch (TWOJ) und Portugisisch (Rederecord). Aber niemand außer mir wird diese Kanäle je gucken.

Edited by Iversen on 01 December 2014 at 1:26pm

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Iversen
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 Message 3763 of 3959
02 December 2014 at 10:55pm | IP Logged 
RU: Я провел 2½ часы в поездах сегодня, и в это время я читал один датский газету и некоторые старые печатные издания из книги Спивака "Как стать полиглотом"'. Это странной книгой. Иногда Spivak кажется очень осторожным, типа того, когда он говорит о 'правиле семь'. Но иногда он пишет вещи, которые являются совершенно сумасшедшими, как на пример: "Так, житель Франкфурта-на-Майне Л. Шютц свободно поддерживал беседу на 270 языках." 270 языках?? Это сделало бы Л. Шютцом языковым гением столь же монументальный как E. Емил Кребс стоящий на плечах кардинала Мецофанти! Я не верю этому. Но показание целой книги на русском языке - хорошее обучение для меня - центральная библиотека в моем городе только имеет вымышленную литературу на русском языке.

I have visited a nearby town as part of my job today, and that meant that I had time to read a newspaper and the initial part of Spivak's book about polyglots. I made a printout of those pages several years ago, and as far as remember I found it rather chatty and not very informative. But back then I had to spell my way through it - even with a translation. It goes much easier now, and I have just read a few more chapters with the help of a dictionary, and it's good training for me. I have not read much Russian this year because I didn't want to it to interfere with my Serbian studies, but it's about time to take up not only Russian, but also Polish.

In my luggage I also carry a few other outprints around (for reeading in the famous bus-back-home), and just for fun I would like to list them here:

In Serbian: 1) The advance notice from the homepage of the Cultural Centre for the Novi Sad meeting plus touristical information about Zadar, Banja Luka, Beograd and Novi Sad. 2) A selection of texts about sparrows (!) from Wikipedia and other sources

In Latin: 1) The chapter about Caligula from Suetonius, 2) The murder of Caesar and a chapter about the British Isles from 'Agricola' by Tacitus

In Modern Greek: several texts about physics from www.scienceinschool.org

In Spanish and Portuguese: mostly texts about paleontology

In Spanish: an article about the exotic fruits of Honduras

In Italian: some geology texts including an article about the Snowball Earth theory. I have read them, but the last page is in and about the Sardic language, and that's why I have kept the collection in my bag.

Indonesian: some texts about 'sains (science) - but not the long paleontological one from Facebook I have mentioned several times here. That one will be standing on my notestand until I have finished it.


And just for fun: let's continue with the content of my notestand and the stool below it, where I keep texts which I recently have used for intensive study (or in some cases intend to use soon):

Indonesian: the Facebook text - where I have reached the Cretaceous era

Afrikaans: a collection of short news messages and articles from www.hermanustimes.co.za

Romanian: four pages about Novi Sad

Icelandic: articles about astronomy from www. stjornufraedi.is

Italian: the articles about the Majorana particle, which should be fairly wellkown by now - but also some articles about the "stato vegetativo" - i.e. the mental state of persons which may be conscious even though they look like they are deeply unconscient (rather scare stuff!)

Esperanto: 1) the Kalendaro 2012-2013 from UEA, 2) articles about the state of the language from the internet

Catalan: more paleontology

Polish: 1) something about feathered dinos, 2) a collection of composer biographies from Wikipedia

Romanian: some travelogues from the internet

Croatian: a long article about the story of the Croatian language (and its near relatives)


In short, a disorganized jumble of printouts mixed with wordlists, text copies and - sometimes - a magazine or too. And dictionaries. I actually read more 'full' books before I got involved in language learning, but it would cost a lot of money to buy books, and I haven't got space for them. Our local library here does have a sizeable collection of books in most of my target languages, but alas - mostly just literature. So articles and magazines and stuff from the internet dominates my extensive reading for the time being. When I do read books, like the Italian one about the Goths I reread a week ago or the fat book about the Slavic languages on my night table (= a chair), I either finish them in one go or keep them strictly away from my daily study texts.


Edited by Iversen on 03 December 2014 at 12:07am

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chokofingrz
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 Message 3764 of 3959
03 December 2014 at 1:27am | IP Logged 
Hi Iversen, great log as usual... I have a couple of questions about your recent study habits:

1. Do you often print out pages from random foreign articles and is it a way of "forcing" yourself to get some input in those languages? (On the computer it's so easy to close the tab of any difficult article; when printed out, it's harder to throw away)?

2. Do you find it a useful technique to collect and compare texts across multiple similar languages as you have done with the Jurassic Period? When you read them, do you feel like anything sinks in, or is it just for fun?

I like the sound of these techniques and would consider copying them from time to time.
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Iversen
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 Message 3765 of 3959
03 December 2014 at 10:49am | IP Logged 
I wouldn't say "random" - I'm normally quite fuzzy about the materials I choose to print out. But in some languages it is hard to find other materials than Wikipedia articles about my preferred subjects, and then I have to use some that at least serve some concrete purpose. The calendar in Esperanto is an example of this - if I can't find interesting articles about popular science outside Wikipedia then I can at least choose a text that covers some specific purpose, which in this case is different kinds of events.

Likewise I wouldn't call these study habits 'recent' - if you read some of the earliest pages in this log you will see that I also used printouts from the internet for intensive study or reading in-the-bus-back-home-from-work back then. And the texts have always been widely dispersed thematically, but with islands concentrated around a certain theme. Like my recent paleontological spell or my temporary infatuation with the mysterious Majorana particle.

I print the texts out for several reasons: things I just read on the internet are in principle gone when I shut down my PC - OK, they don't disappear from the internet, but it is not likely that I return to them, and I certainly can't read them without switching the thing on again. And if I choose a text for intensive study it is important that I can return to precisly that text to confirm and solidify the things I learned during the first session with it.

Another reason is that I still haven't bought a digital text reader for use in the bus-back-home-from-work or other means of transportation. I have a thing that looks like a longish silver egg, and there are some MP3 downloads in Afrikaans on it, but by and large I go analog when I'm away from my computer.

And one final reason for printing texts out: when I study my weak or mediocre languages I mostly use a bilingual format with two columns because I can avoid some dictionary lookups and (with languages) get a hint to understand murky constructions. I do NOT trust google translation, but its errors are often easy to spot, and even from a rotten translation I may still get the information that saves me a dictionary lookup. Getting parallel books is sometimes possible (Harry Potter!), but often costly and always cumbersome

The original target language is placed to the left and a translation to the right - and if the target language is fairly I often experiment with other translation languages. For instance I have made a bilingual version of some pages of Spivak where I have used translations into Danish, Portuguese, Spanish, Esperanto and Afrikaans. It wouldn't have functioned when I still had big problems reading Russian, but time has passed and now it just makes the study more entertaining to see some other languages alongside the original text.

PS: I just saw that the Polyglot conference in New York next year is expected to take place in October. I'll try to be there - and if that can be aranged it will be around 10 years since last time I visited the States. I have a couple of other destinations there on my to do-list...

PS PS: And I have just signed up for the gathering in Berlin in May 2015.

Edited by Iversen on 04 December 2014 at 5:01pm

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Iversen
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 Message 3766 of 3959
05 December 2014 at 12:34pm | IP Logged 

Yesterday evening I proceeded from the Jurassic to the Cretaceous in my long paleontological text in Indonesian. I learn a lot of relevant words (butterflies and bees and ants and many other important groups first appeared in this period), but I have to be cautious about 'untranslations' in the text - such as the word "Cretaceous" for the last part of the Mesozoicum. In some places the text uses the adapted spelling "kretaseus" which without doubt is a congenial solution for this language (like "sains" for 'science'), but I have also seen the word "kapur" plus some kind of word for 'era' - "kapur" means "chalk". In Danish we always call this period "kridttiden", literally 'chalk time' so seeing "zaman kapur" or something like that can't shock me.

I also continued my study of Spivak, did wordlists in Russian and Greek and Bahasa Indonesian, and I went through some of the texts in my old Polish textbook. I used it as a first introduction to the language before switching to genuine texts, but when you have left a language idle for some time it is always a good idea to reanimate it by running through some of the ol' stuff. So I'll be spending some time in the company of doktor Ewa and inżynier Adam and their dog and family members and acquaintances in the near future. And when I have reached the point where I left it in the spring it will be an even greater pleasure to close the book and say goodbye to them all - hopefully forever.
   




Edited by Iversen on 05 December 2014 at 12:37pm

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Iversen
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 Message 3767 of 3959
07 December 2014 at 4:35pm | IP Logged 
In another thread (the one about ortodoxy) it was seen as a ridiculous error to say *"organ" about an organ in French - the word should be "orgue", and no French native would apparently commit this ghastly error. Maybe - but it wouldn't surprise me if it happened, and the one who commited this unpardonable sin would almost certainly be an afacionado of pop or rock who knew about "electric organs". If it hasn't happened already the reason can only be that the instrument in question usually is referred to as the "keyboards" (pars pro toto!).

As for organs as found in churces the 'high brow' French expression is actually "les orgues" in the plural, though 'orgue' in the singular is the one normally used. The size of the thing and the use of multiple keyboards may have inspired people to see it as a combination of several instruments. But according to my French etymological dictionary the word in both cases go back to Latin "organum", and the first person who dropped the ending must have been accursed of sloppy pronunciation, and the first who used the word in the plural was probably seen as a snobbish know-all, but the usage stuck among musicians. And not only the instrument as such was given a name in the plural, but also its parts - whence names like "Offertoire pour les grand jeux" (a piece by Couperin, written for just about the whole rack). The English word "organ" is obviously derived from the same Latin word, but preserved the -n, Actually -um may have survived for some time due to the Latinist leanings of the church - but the name at this time was not yet reserved for church organs. Groves dictionary quotes Augustin as translated by John of Trevia (1398): "Organum is a generall name of all Instrumentes of Musyk; and is nethelesse specyally apropyte to the Instrument that is made of many pipes; and blowen with belowes". Actually Augustine already used the singular and the plural indiscrimenately - to the extent that they both could occur in one and the same sentence. The word "organize" has come from the same Latin root, and it is known at least from the 17. century. And lo and behold, so does the word "organ" for a part of the body, and with this meaning it has also survived in French. Actually it seems that even the reference to a musical instrument can be attested in Old French (1120) - but the general populace chose to drop the ending -an (methinks to the chagrin of the learned ones of the period).

PS: I have tried to find out where the 'l' in German, Dutch and Danish "Orgel" comes from, but even Duden Etymologie is somewhat reticent to give an explanation. My guess is that it is a the rest of a diminutive affix - and probably from the time before the instrument grew to immense proportions. As for the word "organum" it was of course stolen from the Greeks ("ὄργανον") - together with their medical vocabulary. money and artworks. But the funny thing is that the Greeks themselves used the word "ὕδραυλις" about their waterdriven contraptions. A Roman copy from 228 AD has miraculously has survived in Budapest, and you can admire a reconstruction of it in the Aquincum museum there.

IT: Oggi ho dedicato qualche ore allo studio intensivo della lingua Italiano. E perché? - dato che l'italiano è una delle lingue più vecchie e anche una lingua che io sostengo che 'parlo'? Ma ci restano parole che non conosco, e apprendere queste parole anche funciona como una rinfrescata generale di tutte le altre parole. Ho ripassato qualche 120-130 vocaboli di una lista tirata da un dizionario, tra l'altro parole come "arruffare", "arrufanarsi" e "arruffapopoli". Pare che il significato nucleo di "arruffare" sia qualcosa come imbrogliare, ma nei espressioni cambia alquanto. "Arrufanarsi" significarebbe 'ingratiarsi", ed un "arruffapopoli" è un demagogo che si arruffa la folla. Se non avessi studiato il vocabolario con l'aiuto di un dizionario non avessi mai visto queste tre parole insieme.

RU: Я также повторил русское слово из списка слов сегодня, но в этом случае источник был книга Спивака.

IT: Oggi ho guardato il programma televisivo "Linea Verde" (después de "El Escarabeo Verde" en español). La linea verde questa colta trattava del perdito di area agrarie nei dintorni delle città. Si ha discutato zone con 'natura ribelle' che rifiuta di scomparire - come per esempio le erbacce o gli animali che cambiano il loro stile di vita per sopravvivere. Abbiamo anche visitato luoghi orribili con mucchi di spazzatura - ma quello che mi ricordo di più è stata la visita ad una fattoria, che si trovava come un'isola isolata, una reliquia del passato, circondata da zone di urbanizzazione. La proprietaria era una dama che aveva ereditata la fattoria, e che ora continuava la moda di vita della sua famiglia con solo cinque vacche ed un gregge di polli.

SW: Jag har också tittat på anglofont, svensk ock kroatisk TV. På kroatiskan var det ett utmärkt program fra Split om havet - lite som det franska Thalassa. På svenska lyssnade jag först på Sverigesquizzen på SV1, men när dom började sjunga, växlade jag omedelbart til SV2 ock såg en annan quiz: "Vem vet mest". Och ursäkta mig för att jag säger så, men det är chockerande vad folk inte vet (eller inte minns) - till exempel att Svalbard tillhör Norge.

Edited by Iversen on 07 December 2014 at 5:37pm

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Sarnek
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 Message 3768 of 3959
07 December 2014 at 4:54pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:


IT: Oggi ho dedicato qualche ore allo stuio intensivo della lingua Italiano. E perché? - dato che l'italiano è una delle lingue più vecchie e anche una
lingua che io sostengo che 'parlo'? Ma ci restano parole che non
conosco, e apprendere queste parole anche funciona como una rinfrescata generale di tutte le altre parole. Ho ripassato qualche 120-130 vocaboli di una lista
tirata da un dizionario, tra l'altro parole come "arruffare",
"arrufanarsi" e "arruffapopoli". Pare che il significato nucleo di "arruffare" sia qualcosa come imbrogliare, ma nei espressioni cambia alquanto. "Arrufanarsi"
significarebbe 'ingratiarsi", ed un "arruffapopoli" è un demagogo che
si arruffa colla folla. Se non avessi studiato il vocabolario con l'aiuto di un dizionario non avessi mai evsto queste tre parole insieme.

IT: Oggi ho guardato il programma televisivo "Linea Verde" (después de "El Escarabeo Verde" en español). La linea verde questa colta trattava del perdito
di area agrarie nei dintorni delle città. Si ha discutato zone con
zone con 'natura ribelle' che rifiuta di scomparire - come per esempio le erbacce o gli animali che cambiano il loro stile di vita per sopravvivere. Abbiamo anche
visitato luoghi orribili con mucchi di spazzatura - ma quello che
mi ricordo di più è stata la visita ad una fattoria, che si trovava come un'isola isolata, una reliquia del passato, circondato da zone di urbanizzazione. La
proprietaria era una dama che aveva ereditata la fattoria, e che ora
continuava la moda di vita della sua famiglia con solo cinque vacche ed un gregge di polli.



Ciao Iversen. Mi sono preso la libertà di fare alcune correzioni a ciò che hai scritto (complimentoni a proposito, hai un vocabolario vastissimo). Spero non ti
dispiaccia.

IT: Oggi ho dedicato qualche ora di studio intensivo della lingua Italiana. E perché? - dato che l'italiano è una delle lingue più vecchie e anche una
lingua che io sostengo che 'parlo'? Ma ci sono parole che non conosco, e
imparare queste parole funge anche da rinfrescata generale per tutte le altre parole. Ho ripassato un 120-130 vocaboli di una lista stilata da un dizionario, tra
l'altro parole come "arruffare", "arrufanarsi" e "arruffapopoli".
Pare che il significato base di "arruffare" sia qualcosa come imbrogliare, ma nelle espressioni cambia alquanto. "Arrufanarsi" significarebbe 'ingraziarsi", ed un
"arruffapopoli" è un demagogo che si arruffa la folla. Se non
avessi studiato il vocabolario con l'aiuto di un dizionario non avrei mai visto queste tre parole insieme.

IT: Oggi ho guardato il programma televisivo "Linea Verde" (después de "El Escarabeo Verde" en español). La linea verde questa volta trattava della perdita
di areae agrarie nei dintorni delle città. Si è discusso (?) zone
con zone con 'natura ribelle' che rifiuta di scomparire (cosa volevi dire di preciso?)- come per esempio le erbacce o gli animali che cambiano il loro stile di
vita per sopravvivere. Abbiamo anche visitato luoghi orribili con
mucchi di spazzatura - ma quello che mi ricordo di più è stata la visita ad una fattoria, che si trovava come un'isola isolata, una reliquia del passato,
circondata da zone di urbanizzazione. La proprietaria era una dama che aveva
ereditata la fattoria, e che ora continua lo stile di vita della sua famiglia con solo cinque vacche ed un gregge di polli.



Edited by Sarnek on 07 December 2014 at 4:55pm



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