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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Fasulye
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 Message 2825 of 3959
18 February 2012 at 8:55pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
Meiner Meinung nach sollte mann solche Mischlinge nicht produzieren.


Dann hätte man die beiden Hybrid-Bären töten müssen. Was im Osnabrücker Zoo passiert war ist, dass sich unerkannter Weise zwei Bären miteinander gepaart hatten, von den alle (= auch die Wissenschaftler) dachten, sie könnten keine Nachkommenschaft erzeugen. Die gesamte Schwangerschaft der Braunbärin blieb unentdeckt, erst nach der Geburt wurden die beiden jungen Hybrid-Bären gefunden. Ich finde nicht, dass man sie hätte töten müssen, es gab aber Stimmen, die das gefordert hatten. Die "Gemischtbärenhaltung" ist nach dem "Unglücksfall" in Osnabrück sofort aufgehoben worden, das heißt eine weitere Hybrid-Geburt kann jetzt nicht mehr eintreten.

Ich habe schon so viele(!!) Zooführungen jetzt mitgemacht, dass ich dir versichern kann, dass es in Europa mit Sicherheit keinen Zoo gibt, der Mischlinge produzieren will. Gezüchtet wird streng nach Zuchtbuch und die Zoos müssen sich für jede Paarung vorher eine Genehmigung einholen.

Fasulye



Edited by Fasulye on 18 February 2012 at 9:04pm

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Iversen
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 Message 2826 of 3959
19 February 2012 at 2:54pm | IP Logged 
GE: Braunbären und Eisbären sind genetisch fast identisch, so die Eksperten müssten wissen dass es zu 'Unfälle' kommen koennte. Jetzt wo es geschehen ist sollte man die Mischlinge jedenfalls sterilisieren. PS: dies ist ein umlautloses Tastatur, aber ich habe die Umläute von Fasulye kopiert - hehe.

I have been thinking about how Westeners learn Chinese. Is it wrong to assume that you start out with the Chinese (simplified signs), a dictionary of some kind based on those signs and a teacher who tells you how to pronounce the sounds? The more I'm surrounded by Chinese here the more it seems to me that the center of Chinese learning should be texts, dictionaries and grammars with the Chinese signs, but first and foremost some kind of pinyin with tone markings. When I see a chinese sign (and decides what it looks like) I want to think of it with its sound value and a meaning, but without tone-marked Pinyin this is not going to happen. I will perpetually be associating the signs with interpretations like the first sign in Hua Lien being a lady sitting on her bum reading a newspaper (and looking towards the right), while a man is reading over her shoulder. That's good as a memory hook, but not all signs have a similar easy interpretation. The second own in Hua Lien looks like something that should be simplified.

I'm also studying other languages here to keep them alived. In a moment I'll go to my chamber and grab my TY Irish, and I have already studied a French and a Bahasa Indonesian version of the brochure about the metro in Taipei.

BA I: Bahkan untuk tidak paralel sama sekali. Tentu saja ada kata yang berbeda dengan berbagai temuan berarti literal (kata bahasa Indonesia untuk 'metro' adalah 'fast car'), tetapi kalimat memiliki arti yang berbeda. Pada akhirnya Anda mendapatkan informasi yang benar, tetapi sepanjang jalan yang berbeda.

The two versions are not parallel - in the end you get the same information, but along different paths.

Edited by Iversen on 19 February 2012 at 3:04pm

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Fasulye
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 Message 2827 of 3959
19 February 2012 at 7:00pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
GE: Braunbären und Eisbären sind genetisch fast identisch, so die Eksperten müssten wissen dass es zu 'Unfälle' kommen koennte. Jetzt wo es geschehen ist sollte man die Mischlinge jedenfalls sterilisieren.


DE: Mit Sicherheit haben sie diese Mischlinge sterilisiert oder kastriert, davon ist auszugehen.

Fasulye
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Iversen
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 Message 2828 of 3959
20 February 2012 at 12:50pm | IP Logged 
Now I'm in Tainan, an old town with a lot of temples - and just 1,5 day to see them.

This time I'm sitting at a computer with three separate operating systems, so the only reminder about Chinese is the weird signs on the keyboard. One thing that has bothered me about Chinese in my language guides and other printed sources is the microscopic size of even the most complicated signs. Maybe people here identify them by outer shape or something, but it is beyond me how you can learn to write signs which you hardly can see. Besides I would need the annotated pinyin to learn to associate those glyphs with a sound, as I wrote yesterday. The main thoroughfares in the towns I have visited so far have bilingual street signs, and some buildings also have English names written somewhere on them, but I have become accostumed to looking for at least one of the typically two signs for a name - the problem is that I identify them by shape (and 'funny stories') rather than by the sound.

Apart from that, I spent more than two hours yesterday evening with my Irish textbook, and the funny thing is that the Irish language seems so much more complicated and intractable than Chinese. If you combine two signs in Chinese they may have an unexpected meaning, but that's about it - there is no morphology to worry about, just a few affix-like entities. And the only problem about tones is that they aren't marked in any of the two writing systems - I have so far not had problems imitating them (which is a necessity - otherwise people simple get that blank stare in their eyes). But neither the glyphs nor pinyin gives you any information about tones.

Yesterday I also reread some of the receipts in my Russian bakery book which somehow has followed me over here. Actually I also brought along a couple of Kauderwelsch'es, and I have read half of the one about Platt, but it is not quite systematic enough for my taste - it is just as much a book about folklore as about the language. And finally I have a heap of printouts, but I have not read any of those yet - I save the description of Caligula by Svetonius for the long haul back to Europe.

Today was not a big tourism day - I have been sitting in a train for more than 5 hours, mostly doing sudokus.

Edited by Iversen on 07 March 2012 at 3:39pm

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Brun Ugle
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 Message 2829 of 3959
20 February 2012 at 6:24pm | IP Logged 
Actually, pinyin does show tones. It has marks on top that look like accent marks to show the different tones. Of course, these are probably left out on signs and things, but learners usually use pinyin when they are learning, and the tones there are always marked.

Many people do learn the character's by making funny stories about them. Of course, when you are learning them, they are written fairly big in the textbook so you can see all the strokes. However, once you know them well, it doesn't matter that they are sometimes to small to make out all the strokes. Chinese people don't look at each stroke in a character any more than we look at each letter in a word. You just glance at it, and you know what it says.
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Iversen
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 Message 2830 of 3959
21 February 2012 at 11:32am | IP Logged 
In my three Chinese language guides there are accent marks, but when I walk around in the streets here and look at street signs or read information leaflets there are no signs, just letters. This is Taiwan, but I'm sure the situation is the same on the mainland (provided that there are texts there in English at all). However the inclusion of the tones in the pedagogical works is logical because there must be many learners who have the same problem as me, namely an inability to associate a Chinese sign with any kind of sound, and who contrary to me have the intention of learning Chinese, then the solution will of course be to use the annotated Pinyin as an intermediary, so to say a link between the two other things. In the end you will of course have to live without Pinyin (because Chinese generally is written with those decorative small paintings), but unlike Chinese children who learn the spoken language first and who are surrounded by it day and night most Westerners have to learn the language and the writing simultaneously.

One more thought: do Chinese learners normally see each sign written in different ways so that they can make out for themselves which traits are the pertinent ones, those which you use for identifying it? During my wanderings through streets and temples and museums here I have seen many different handwriting styles, and it must sometimes be difficult for learners to know how far you can 'squeeze' a sign while still keeping its identity intact.

I'm going out to eat now, but afterwards it will be time for my collection of materials in other languages. When I travel to places whose languages I have decided to learn I will of course concentrate on those languages, but Chinese is so far not on the list (because of the writing). IF I ever decide to learn a tonal language it would be more logical to start with Vietnamese which actually as a standard procedure is written with the tone signs I miss in standard Pinyin, but so far this is just a fleeting thought. And no, I have not planned to go to Vietnam for the 97. Universal Esperanto congress which is scheduled to happen in Hanoi, so I'm not in any kind of hurry. If anything, there is another Esperanto thing happening in Galway in Ireland this year, and Galway is actually one of the few places where you might have some Gaelic activity, so I might be tempted to go there to pick up some materials in Irish too. And does it bother me that there are a few thousand active speakers of Irish, maybe a million who can say a few words in Esperanto but a billion (= 'milliard' where I live) who speak Chinese? No. I primarily learn languages for fun and not for communication.

EDIT: while having dinner it just occurred to me that I may have seen Chinese place names and things like that written with Roman letters without accents, but not complete texts in Chinese - so even though the transliterations may be inspired by Pinyin they actually are thought of as being written in English. So now I just wonder where true Pinyin is used...


Edited by Iversen on 21 February 2012 at 12:34pm

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Iversen
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 Message 2831 of 3959
22 February 2012 at 2:48am | IP Logged 
Last week I mentioned that I had bought a magazine called Kijk in Schiphold. This is my reactions to it:

'Kijk' is ongetwijfeld een tijdschrift van dezelfde soort en geloofwaardigheid als "Wetenschap in beeld", maar het heeft een iets meer uitgesproken neiging om onderwerpen te kiezen op basis van of relevantie voor onze maatschappij. En die artikelen die zulke themas hebben kunnen tamelijk lang zijn. In het ene Kijk wat ik heb gekocht is er bijvoorbeeld een artikel over het risico voor een 'infectie storm' (met influenza als de grootste bedreiging, in plaats van aids en ebola), of het artikel over onbemande 'drones' die nu zo goedkoop zijn dat zelfs amateurs kunnen ze maken of kopen - en zo kunnen ook criminelen en terroristen. Of een lang historisch artikel over de Nederlandse koloniale verleden. Of een ander over de inherente misvatting van berekenings van economische groei zonder inbegrip van negatieve factoren zoals vervuiling en overexploitatie van naturlijke resourcen. Gelukkig dat het tijdschrift niet zo zeer predikt sodat zelfs ik kan genieten van het lezen - ik haat prediken, maar het is OK een aantal relevante thema's naar voren te brengen en laten de leezers zelfs oordelen.

Edited by Iversen on 22 February 2012 at 2:27pm

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Fasulye
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 Message 2832 of 3959
22 February 2012 at 2:49pm | IP Logged 
NL: Leuk om jouw indruk van het tijdschrift "Kijk" te lezen, want ik ken het alleen van het zien van de titel, dus eigenlijk niet. Wat deze onderwerpen betreft: Niets voor mijn smaak daarbij!

Fasulye


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