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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Fasulye
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 Message 705 of 3959
17 April 2009 at 10:46am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
Fasulye wrote:
.. As I have never really studied grammar books, I must take small steps to make an improvement.


Maybe not,- so far you have had success with language learning without formal studies of grammar books, and as far as I can understand you haven't got problems with the Turkish grammar, only with 'getting to think' in Turkish - and formal grammar studies won't help you with that.

My mission with the analysis of the two Italian sentences was 1) to have fun, 2) to show the readers how intricate the grammatical structures of fairly commonplace sentences in a perfectly normal European language can be. It is really a miracle that anybody can learn any language when they are so complicated.


EN: I was always good in grammar at school, and in my last VHS-course of Turkish I was far ahead of the others concerning grammar knowledge, and - typically - I was the only one interested in grammar. So grammar is not my weak point of the Turkish language, that's right. My problem is still the missing "thinking level" of Turkish and as a consequence of that I cannot formulate freely or converse in Turkish.

Fasulye-Babylonia
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Fasulye
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 Message 706 of 3959
17 April 2009 at 8:45pm | IP Logged 
DE: So wie's aussieht habe ich jetzt einen neuen Arbeitsplatz in Aussicht. Dann wird endlich wieder Ruhe einkehren bei mir... Ich war doch ein bisschen sehr abgelenkt von meinen interessanten Hobbys. Bei dem neuen Arbeitsplatz werde ich nicht nur mit Niederländisch, sondern auch mit Französisch zu tun haben. Im Vorstellungsgespräch wurden daher meine mündlichen Französischkennntisse überprüft. Die sind nicht so brilliant wie mein Niederländisch, aber es reicht wohl aus. Die Arbeitszeiten werden so sein, dass ich auch meine türkische Arbeitsgruppe fortsetzen kann. Was bin ich erleichtert!

Fasulye-Babylonia

Edited by Fasulye on 17 April 2009 at 8:50pm

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Iversen
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 Message 707 of 3959
17 April 2009 at 10:19pm | IP Logged 
Das ist ja hervorragend - ich wünsche dir viel Glück damit!

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Fasulye
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 Message 708 of 3959
17 April 2009 at 11:00pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
Das ist ja hervorragend - ich wünsche dir viel Glück damit!


FR: Avant de commencer ce nouveau travail j'ai encore deux semaines de temps libre, donc je vais - apprendre le turc comme toujours - mais je voudrais aussi focuser sur mon français, parce que je devrai téléphoner avec des clients franco-suisses. Tres heureusement j'ai maintenant la chaine TV5 a ma disposition pour m'entrainer. Tous les sites audio d'internet en français seront bienvenus pour moi. Je suis heureuse que je ne dois pas écouter et parler Schwyzerdütsch!!!

NL: Wat je altijd nodig hebt bij professionele telefooncontacten is het spelalphabet in de desbetreffende taal. Het is voor mij doodgewoon om het Nederlandse te gebruiken, het Duitse beheers ik slechts heel gedeeltelijk. Net heb ik me het Franse spelalphabet gegoogled en dat zal ik - hopelijk dit weekend al - van buiten leren. In het sollicitatiegesprek werd ik gevraagd in hoeverre ik vertrouwd ben met "het authentieke Frans" wat in Zwitserland gesproken wordt. Ik zei dat ik zoiets alleen van de TV ken, dus dat wil zeggen dat ik vanaf nu mij ga opleggen om regelmatig naar TV5 te kijken.

Fasulye-Babylonia

Edited by Fasulye on 17 April 2009 at 11:41pm

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maya_star17
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 Message 709 of 3959
18 April 2009 at 7:44am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
FR: Moi, je le sais, parce que j'ai fait ces calcules pour plusieurs de mes langues pendant que je les ai appris
Shouldn't this be:

...pour plusieurs de mes langues pendant que je les ai apprises?
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Iversen
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 Message 710 of 3959
18 April 2009 at 7:54am | IP Logged 
Oui, - parce que l'objet direct "les" se trouve avant le participe, en combinaison avec le fait que le verbe auxiliaire ici est "avoir". Avec l'objet après le verbe il n'y pas de concordance. Avec le verbe auxiliaire "être^ il ya concordance avec le sujet. Mais il est difficile d'éviter les fautes, et surtout difficile de voir toutes ses propres gaffes.

Ik denk dat "het authentieke Frans wat in Zwitserland gesproken wordt" grotendeels is hetzelfde als in Frankrijk. Maar de enige Franse toetsenbord dat ik zo ver heb geprobeerd was een beetje en ramp voor mij.

-----

To Maya_Star17: Yes, when the auxiliary verb in a 'passé composé' is 'avoir' the rule is that there is concordance with the direct object when it stands before the participle, not when it stands after. And here the object is "les" which refers to something feminine ("langues"). Always concordance with the subject if the auxiliary verb is "être". Errare humanum est.
.
To Fasulye: I think that the French used in Switzerland is more or less the same as in French, so you won't have trouble with that, but the only French keyboard I have ever used was something of a nuisance.





Edited by Iversen on 18 April 2009 at 9:14am

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Iversen
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 Message 711 of 3959
18 April 2009 at 1:34pm | IP Logged 
This is really an answer to a question in another thread, but it was somewhat marginal in that context. Here I have a totally chaotical thread where it won't seem a bit out of place. But it would be out of place to write it only in English here so If you really want to read my answer in standardcommonlanguageenglish, then please proceed to the end of this long post.

---

GER: Natürlich habe ich Lehrer gehabt in der Schule (das ist sehr lange her!), wenn ich zuerst Englisch, Deutsch, Französisch und Latein lernen mußte, und sie haben mir traditionsgemäß gebeten, auch etwas zu SAGEN in diesen Sprachen. So geht's ja immer vor sich im Schulunterricht, und wenn man einen lebendigen Lehrer um sich hat, wäre es auch etwas seltsam selber nichts zu sagen, und es wäre direkt kontraproduktiv in seiner Muttersprache zu sprechen. Also in einer Klassensituation, und noch mehr mit einem bezahlten Tutor, glaube ich, daß das Sprechen von Anfang an ein logischer Teil des Prozesses ist.

IT: Ma infatto ho cominciato ad apprendere lingue per studio individuale a casa già avanti di cominciare ad aprendere il francese nella scuola (all'età di 12-13 anni), solamente con un libro de corso. La rete non esistava, non avevo canali di televisione Italiana o spagnola, e perciò solamente conosceva la pronunciazione di queste due lingua da qualche rari programmi nella televesione danese, dove per la grazia d'Iddio si utilizza sottotitoli invece di doppiaggio. Ho avuto un professore di francese al liceo che senza preavviso mi ha dato questioni in Italiano e spagnolo dove gli altri hanno ricevuto unicamente questioni in francese - ho un débito enorme di riconoscenza per lui perché ha riconosciuto da questa maniera i miei tentativi di apprendere due lingue a casa. Durante mio primo viaggio in Italia in 1972 ho potuto parlare su un livello frammentarico con la gente del luogo, e mi hanno compreso. Durante il mio trempo all'università ho seguite (irregolarmente)qualche corsi di Italiano, ma nessun corso in spagnolesco.

SP: Siguieron 25 años donde yo no hice nada para aprender idiomas, sino que sencillamente utilicé lo que ya sabía durante mis viajes. Sin embargo, he en los últimos años tomado vacaciones en América Latina, España y Italia, donde yo no hablé nada sino los idiomas locales - incluso en los aeropuertos. En realidad no sé cómo sea mi pronunciación en estos dos idiomas, pero al parecer no presenta ningún obstáculo para que pueda comunicarme sin trabas con los hablantes nativos.

PORT: O Português é um caso mais extremo. Na universidade eu tive um curso na utilização de linguagens similares para compreender uma linguagem não apreendido, e isto é o mais próximo eu tenho como curso de Português. Não tinha falado portugues quando em outobro 2006 decidiu de comprar um viagem ao Cabo Verde. Em duas semanas eu estudei gramática e memorizei palavras enquanto eu treinei-me a compreender Português escrito. Depois - duas semanas antes da minha partida - eu comecei a ouvir a TV Scienza e TV Beira, e me obrigou a pensar em Português. E quando cheguei lá, os caboverdianos compreendiam o que dizia, sómente não podia dizer muitas coisas. Depois tenho tomado vacaciões unilinguais em Moçambique e Portugal, e eu não tinha nenhuma problema a falar com a gente. Não sei se a minha pronunciaçao seja uma catástrofe, mas sei que se me enteende quando eu falo português - e isto basta para mim.

------------------

Of course I had to listen to my teachers in school when I first had to learn English, German, French and Latin, and they also asked me to pronounce something in those languages - that's how normal teaching goes, and when you have a living speaking teacher around you it would also be somewhat strange not to say a word in 'outlandish' yourself, and it would be directly counterproductive only to speak in your native language. So in a classroom setting, and even more with a paid tutor, I think that speaking out from the start is a logical and inevitable part of the process.

For homestudy the situation is different.

I started to learn Italian and Spanish at home even before French (no need to learn French at home, because I saw it looming ahead of me). I only had some text books and dictionaries, no internet (it wasn't invented), no Italian or Spanish TV stations, just a snippet of foreignese in Danish TV, which thank heavens always has used subtitles rather than dubbing. In high school I was fortunate enough to have a teacher in French who without warning would ask me questions in Italian or Spanish, so I had to find out how to pronounce those languages. I could some extent communicate with the Italians during my first Interrailtour in 1972, and later during my time at the university I even participated in some of the regular courses for students of Italian (without being thrown out). I couldn't do the same thing in Spanish because all courses there were full - but the Spanish department was also heavily politicized (i.e. blood-dripping red marxist) back then, so I didn't even want to.

During the following 25 years I just used the things I already knew during my travels, but I didn't try to learn more. However I could speak Spanish to people during my travels, without ever having followed a course, so my pronuncation may have been atrocious, but not atrocious enough to hinder communication. My Italian grew rusty because it wasn't used enough (travels in Italy became expensive during those years). But since 2006 I have given both of them some attention, and I have made strictly monolingual travels without problems in Spain, Latinamerica and (last but not least) Italy so my pronunciation may be disastrous, but not so much that the locals can't understand me, - in fact they don't even speak slower to me, and they hardly ever ask me to repeat myself.

Portuguese is an even more extreme case: I had a crash course at the university in the art of using related languages to understand a language you haven't learnt yet, and we used Portuguese as an example (that's why I have some old Portuguese dictionaries and grammars). But in october 2006 I bought a travel to Cape Verde, and I had one month to learn Portuguese. I only started to listen systematically to Portuguese internet-TV and to think in Portuguese 2 weeks before my departure. I uttered my first Portuguese words after my arrival there, and my conversation repertoire was nothing to write home about, but when I said something I was not once asked to repeat it. And since then I have had two purely Portuguese travels: to Moçambique and to Portugal itself, and I had no problems whatsoever being understood. As I said, my pronunciation may not be perfect, but it is good enough for communications purposes. And if it's good enough for the native speakers then it's also good enough for me.

So my conclusion is that it is certainly a good thing to hear a lot of the foreign language at an early stage, and it is probably also a good idea to try to pronounce the words (maybe with ProfArguelles' shadowing technique), but even without saying a word you can obtain a fully functional pronunciation later during your studies. And no, I won't submit sound examples - they wouldn't be pleasing to listen to, and I would be cut to pieces for not speaking better, especially now where I have admitted that pronunciation for me is a minor thing that you can postpone to late in your study or learn while travelling.


Edited by Iversen on 18 April 2009 at 3:55pm

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Fasulye
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 Message 712 of 3959
18 April 2009 at 4:14pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
So my conclusion is that it is certainly a good thing to hear a lot of the foreign language at an early stage, and it is probably also a good idea to try to pronounce the words (maybe with ProfArguelles' shadowing technique), but even without saying a word you can obtain a fully functional pronunciation later during your studies. And no, I won't submit sound examples - they wouldn't be pleasing to listen to, and I would be cut to pieces for not speaking better, especially now where I have admitted that pronunciation for me is a minor thing that you can postpone to late in your study or learn while travelling.


I will write a reply in French here, let me first activate LEXILOGOS - please wait.

LA PRONONCIATION DES LANGUES

FR: Je dois me bien préparer pour mon nouveau travail avec des clients franco-suisses. Pour cela je vourdrais focuser sur mon français. Iversen, j'ai lu tous les expreriences de langues que tu as décrit multilingualement. J'ai une opinion différente sur le thème de la prononciation. Je suis douée pour la pronconcation des langues étrangères mais je suis aussi une perfectioniste. Je n'aime pas du tout parler des langues avec un accent allemand. J'ai déjà fait beaucoup d'audiotrainig, parce que je ne peux pas voyager autour du monde comme des personnes fortunées. C'est rare que je parle avec des native speakers, mais je fais l'assimilation de la prononciation. La plupart de fois je parle mes langues étrangers avec des allemands, donc je suis en danger d'assimiler l'accent allemand des autres personnes. Je voulais mettre mes sounds de tous mes langues dans ce forum, mais l'enregistrer est assez compliqué et la qualité des sounds n'était pas toujours satisfaisant. Pour cela j'avais arreté mes enregistrements.

NL: Als Babylonia al heb ik twee opnames gemaakt (Nederlands en Turks), maar dat is echt een behoorlijk gedoe geweest met de "Free Sound Recorder", het risico zit erin dat opnames volledig mislukken, omdat de stem niet luid te horen is. Zo kan het gebeuren dat ik mij bij middelmatige geluidskwaliteit moet neerleggen, en dat vind ik dan wel jammer. Als dat technisch beter zou gaan, zou ik heel graag alle talen van mij als sounds willen uploaden.

Fasulye-Babylonia

Edited by Fasulye on 18 April 2009 at 7:09pm



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