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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log Post Reply
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Hobbema
Senior Member
United States
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Speaks: English*
Studies: Portuguese, French, Dutch

 
 Message 2137 of 3959
18 November 2010 at 4:25pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:

...However I was recompensated for this loss of valuable study time by a long and very detailed dream this morning, - totally in French and situated at a fictive Bamako (the capital of Mali). But no Arabic writing anywhere - probably because I can't read it. Another notable quality of this dream was that I could read several things, such as some posters with timetables (though the place names were totally unknown to me), a signpost saying «1re classe» (exactly like this, even with the «» signs) and near the end a menu with names of dishes in French, but also with pictures.

If you can't study during your waking hours you have to do it while you sleep. But I rarely take it so literally.


Now this is interesting. I have always been critical of people who insist that “sleep learning” is an effective study tool. That is, learning a language by listening to a recording while you sleep. I’ve always (my opinion) felt this was hogwash and an excuse for laziness, although I’d be happy to hear of those who have found a way to make it work.

However, if you speak a foreign language in a dream, that could be something different. You wouldn’t be learning anything new, of course, but maybe when that happens, could it be something that speeds activation, improves fluency, or maybe even memory?

I dunno, it has never happened to me. My dreams always seem to involve looking for something and not being able to find it. Or trying to get somewhere on time and never being able to get there. But I did read an article in Omni magazine several years ago about developing the ability to direct your dreams; that is to say, by following certain techniques (like concentration and repetition before falling asleep) you could over time have the kinds of dreams you wanted. Unfortunately, I was never able to get that to work...


Edited by Hobbema on 18 November 2010 at 4:26pm

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Iversen
Super Polyglot
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Denmark
berejst.dk
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9078 posts - 16470 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
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 Message 2138 of 3959
18 November 2010 at 11:13pm | IP Logged 
Well, I don't believe in learning while you sleep - it was a joke. But having this dream while thinking about travelling to West Africa AND in a period where I have too little time to study is probably not a coincidence.

Dreams where you know you dream and where you may even be in control of the events are called lucid, and I have had them before - but I rarely remember them as detailed as here, and they are rarely so relevant for my studies (and travel plans).

Edited by Iversen on 20 November 2010 at 2:08pm

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Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 4887 days ago

9078 posts - 16470 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
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 Message 2139 of 3959
20 November 2010 at 1:52pm | IP Logged 
RU: В потоке о Вилли Мельников, Teango нам подарил ссылку на эту статью:Растрепанный Блокнот, Вилли Мельников. Это почти сюрреалистический дань уважения человеку, который утверждает, что понимает всех языков, хотя не узнав их, но которые тем не менее научились 103 языках.Я уже давно классифицировал его как художника, специализирующаяся на события. Это, вероятно, не случайно, что эта слезливый дань подписан следующие:

"Мария Макарова. Живущий в другом измерении"   

Кроме того, я услышал русский язык из planeta.ru. Я должен слушать что-то более подлинным русским источникам, прежде чем я - может быть, - один раз будет делать Россию видео.

---

I have had some fun reading one of the Russian texts about the performance artist Melnikov. It was an almost surrealistic eloge to this man, who allegedly became a superhuman omniscient genius after getting a shrapnel through his brain during the Afghanistan war. Fittingly the article was signed by "Maria Makarova, who lives in another dimension".


EDIT: I made an error in the link (it pointed to an article about number systems), but I have now inserted the correct reference to the article.


Edited by Iversen on 21 November 2010 at 2:13am

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Anya
Pentaglot
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France
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 Message 2140 of 3959
20 November 2010 at 6:38pm | IP Logged 
"Живущий в другом измерении" - это, должно быть, название статьи. Если бы Мария Макарова писала про себя, было бы "живущая" (женский род)

"who lives in another dimension" - it should be the title of the article, not a characteristic of Maria Makarova" (in that case the participle
should be in feminin form)

Edited by Anya on 20 November 2010 at 7:12pm

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Iversen
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 Message 2141 of 3959
21 November 2010 at 2:12am | IP Logged 
Correct, but I quoted directly from the signature line under the article and overlooked that the passage couldn't refer directly to the author - probably because it so uncannily described my impression of herself.

On the contrary it in all likelihood expresses her own opinion of Melnikov - whom she clearly accepts as almost superhuman.


Edited by Iversen on 22 November 2010 at 10:24am

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Romanist
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 3466 days ago

261 posts - 365 votes 
Studies: Italian

 
 Message 2142 of 3959
21 November 2010 at 3:23pm | IP Logged 
Iversen, have you ever come across a foreign person who has learned Danish and who is able to pronounce it reasonably well?

(I ask this because a while ago I obtained an old copy of Linguaphone's Danish course from the 1970s or 1980s. In written form it is relatively transparent for those of us who already know English and German. But it seems almost impossible to pronounce it correctly! :-0)
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Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 4887 days ago

9078 posts - 16470 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
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 Message 2143 of 3959
22 November 2010 at 10:24am | IP Logged 
Well, there is a certain variation in pronunciation even between native Danes. For instance we have many bilingual persons whose 'other' native language have coloured their Danish, so if you don't know that a certain person comes from abroad then you might think that he/she just belonged to this category. But I have actually spoken to people who spoke excellent Danish (i.e. within the variation tolerated among native Danes), and who had spent their childhood outside Denmark. I have a vague feeling that it is easier for Germans than both for Anglophones and other Scandinavians because our neighbours to the South don't have quite as much 'melody' as the Swedes/Norwegians and a vowel system closer to the Danish one than the English one, but of course this is only a marginal advantage. And those few persons who spoke almost without accent lived here permanently.

I know also some persons whose written Danish is excellent, but who have a discernible foreign accent. For instance one of our members in my travel club has several times won prizes for her travelogues, but she still has an accent. But this is not a problem - as I said there is a fair amount of variation in the way Danish can be pronounced so you also have some leeway as a foreign language learner.

This is of course not restricted to Danish. Some time ago Fasulye pointed out that my pronunciation of the Dutch diphtongs ij and uy was a mess, and she indicated how they should be pronounced (and thanks for that). But I actually undertook a study of diphtongs in the Dutch spoken in some concrete podcasts, and I found out that there was an immense variation in the way the Dutch themselves said these vowels - some didn't even separate those sounds. I also jotted down the variations on the sound written as "eu", for instance in the word "leuk" ('fun'). Officially is should be a 'flat' vowel (something like "løøk" in Danish orthography, "löök" using German/Swedish letters). But this was just about the only variation I didn't hear.

So the 'stigmatizing' that a second language learner could feel would more be a question about having unexpected or inconsistent pronunciations than about diverging slightly from the official (or de facto) norm.    

By the way: Danish from the 70s and even 80s is not quite the Danish we hear today, -but at least in TV and films the development has unfortunately been in direction of an even more sloppy and slurry pronunciation. Actually if somebody in a film speaks in a really well-articulated way then it almost feels like a flashback to the fifties.


Edited by Iversen on 22 November 2010 at 3:13pm

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Romanist
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 3466 days ago

261 posts - 365 votes 
Studies: Italian

 
 Message 2144 of 3959
22 November 2010 at 11:12am | IP Logged 
Thanks for this reply, Iversen. :-D

I like the 'look' of Danish a lot - but the pronunciation is an issue. I know what you mean about modern Danish films - I have a DVD of "Italian for Beginners", and it is seems quite impossible to grasp anything at all! (With Swedish films, by contrast, one can understand some words...)

EDIT
I should just point out that "Italian for Beginners" is a Danish language film directed by Lone Scherfig. It is not (as one might perhaps suppose) an Italian course!

Edited by Romanist on 23 November 2010 at 11:42am



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