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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
Super Polyglot
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 Message 2113 of 3959
28 October 2010 at 12:48am | IP Logged 
BA I: Saya telah membaca dan disalin dan diterjemahkan satu halaman di brosur wisata saya dari Singapura. Saya pikir awalnya bahwa orang-orang di Singapura berbahasa Bahasa Melayu, tapi kata-kata dari brosur ini adalah kebanyakan dalam kamus Bahasa Indonesia. Namun saya telah menemukan sesatu pengecualian: "julukan" hanya ada dalam kamus Melayu.

I have spent more than an hout reading, copying and translating just ONE page in my Bahasa tourist brochure from Singapore (which I also have in the English version). Before my recent trip there I thought that Singaporeans spoke the Malay version of Bahasa - but all the unknown words - with one exception - are found in my Indonesian dictionary rather than the Malyan one. The exception is "julukan" (nickname).

Now some may ask: how can one single page take so long? And in Bahasa, which reputedly is extraordinarily easy to learn? Well, there is extensive reading and intensive reading. In the extensive version you just go for the meaning, and that would take much less time. Intensive reading (with copying and making a hyperliteral translation) must be slow because its purpose is to suck every shred of information out of a text passage, ie. learn all words and internalise all contructions. For instance I search for roots of all words because learning the roots is the key to learning this language (or rather these languages, because Malayan and Indonesian seem to be roughly as different as Danish and Norwegian).

RU: Я также пришел к изучаются две страницы в моей книге о русской истории в том же способом - а именно те страницы, где Иван III покоряет Новгород и отменит республики.

I also found time to do a couple of pages from my Russian history book - sadly the pages where Ivan III forces Novgorod to abolish its republican governmental system.




Edited by Iversen on 28 October 2010 at 12:52am

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Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 4835 days ago

9078 posts - 16470 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
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 Message 2114 of 3959
31 October 2010 at 3:31pm | IP Logged 
BA I: Saya mengunjungi ibu saya akhir pekan ini dan aku membawa panduan bahasa dan kamus untuk bahasa Indonesia. Saya telah membuat daftar kata dari 200 kata dari buku. Saya juga menemukan sekrup jatuh dari kursi (tetapi sementara itu, ia membeli kursi kedua, jadi sekarang dia memiliki dua). Dan saya menekan FN + F3 dan menghasilkan gambar di layar komputernya. Sangat menyenangkan untuk melakukan beberapa baik.

I have visited my mother in this weekend. I brought an Indonesian language guide and a dictionary and made a wordlist with around 200 words. But I also found a screw from her armchair and now it functions again (but in the meantime she had bought a new chair so now she has one too much). And I pressed FN F3 on her minicomputer so that the picture returned to her large secondary screen. It fun to make something useful. Especially if it can be done that easily.

As a matter of fact my personal mixture of Indonesian and Malaysian Bahasa is moving reasonably fast ahead. I tried to listen to some TV from Indonesia through the internet last week, and no, I didn't understand what they said. But I could catch the words, and that's a good first step. It shows that the pronunciation I use inside my head must have some resemblance with one or both of the two Bahasas. The big problem remains to separate them - I suppose that a person from the Orient who was given a mixed stack of books in Danish and Norwegian Bokmål would face the same problems in separating those two - especially without oral input.


Edited by Iversen on 01 November 2010 at 2:16pm

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Iversen
Super Polyglot
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Denmark
berejst.dk
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9078 posts - 16470 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
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 Message 2115 of 3959
01 November 2010 at 2:51pm | IP Logged 
AF: Ek het nie 'n Afrikaanse video gemaak nie, en een van die vernaamste redes is dat ek nie regtig weet hoe dit uit te spreek (dit is egter net een van my tekortkominge in hierdie taal!). Ek het lankal opgegee het probeer om iets TV op Afrikaans te vind, en om iets te vind om te luister het ek die lys van skakels nagegaan op openlanguages.net, en daar is 'n lys van radiostations in Afrikaans soos "Radio Sonder Grense" met 'n versameling van podcasts. Podcasts is beter as live radio, want jy kan stop hulle en luister 'n paar keer. Die eerste verrassing was die uitspraak van WWW: /vir vir vir/.

One of the languages in which I haven't made videos so far is Afrikaans, and one of the very good reasons for this calamity is that I simply don't know how to pronounce it correctly. So I really need to listen to some genuine speech, and that can be a problem. I have more or less given up the search for live Web TV in Afrikaans, but now I went through the links at openlanguages.net, and there I found a reference to "Radio without borders" which has a sizeable collection of podcasts. The themes are not all equally exciting, but if that's what I can get then it is still better than having no speech samples at all.    


Edited by Iversen on 02 November 2010 at 7:33pm

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Iversen
Super Polyglot
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Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 4835 days ago

9078 posts - 16470 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
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 Message 2116 of 3959
02 November 2010 at 7:29pm | IP Logged 
AF: Reg nou luister ek vir die derde keer na een van die podcast van die radiostasie die ek het genoem gister - die oor Sterre en Planete (naby die einde van die lys). En nou kan ek verstaan die meeste van hulle. Daar is een paar diftonge daar wat herinner my aan Suid-Duitse dialekte: grourtste, teleskuorp, planeeiorte, amateeeurs, erstelliercht, Canuorpes (=Canopus)

Volgens hierdie podcast Mr. Branson het belowe toerismtoere te maak na die ruimte binne 18 maande. Maar vir hierdie tel nie op my nie - dit sal duur wees, en ek verkies reis op hierdie planeet....

--

Right now I'm listening for the third time to a podcast about stars and planets from the Afrikaans radiostation I mentioned yesterday. Mr. Branson is quoted for a plan to send tourists into space within 18 months, - but don't count on me, mr. Branson. It will be too expensive, and I prefer to travel on the surface of this planet.


Edited by Iversen on 02 November 2010 at 7:32pm

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mick33
Senior Member
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Studies: Thai, Polish, Afrikaans, Hindi, Hungarian, Italian, Spanish, Swedish

 
 Message 2117 of 3959
02 November 2010 at 10:47pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
AF: Reg nou luister ek vir die derde keer na een van die podcast van die radiostasie die ek het genoem gister - die oor Sterre en Planete (naby die einde van die lys). En nou kan ek verstaan die meeste van hulle. Daar is een paar diftonge daar wat herinner my aan Suid-Duitse dialekte: grourtste, teleskuorp, planeeiorte, amateeeurs, erstelliercht, Canuorpes (=Canopus)
Ek het nooit duitse dialekte gehoor en ek weet net 'n bietjie duits so ek was verbaas om 'n artikel oor die invloed van platduits aan afrikaans te vind. Ek het nie die platduits invloed opgelet nie, maar dit is betekennisvol. Die artikel is 'n engels vertaling van 'n vroeër afrikaans artikel maar ek kan nie die oorspronklik vind nie. Miskien is daar ook soms platduits invloed aan afrikaans uitspreek, sedert die diftonge is verskillend klanke as nederlands.

Edited by mick33 on 02 November 2010 at 10:57pm

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Iversen
Super Polyglot
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9078 posts - 16470 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
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 Message 2118 of 3959
03 November 2010 at 1:46am | IP Logged 
Ek het my nie uitgespreek presies nie. Met "suid-duitse" dialekte het ek nie verwys na die lae duits (platt), maar na switserduits en an dialekte gepraat in die suidelike deel van Duitsland (soos Allgau). In hierdie dialekte is diftongering 'n baie prominente eienskap. Eintlik geld dit ook vir laer-engadins en ander raetoromanse dialekte. 't is moeilik om te sê of daar is 'n invloed van platt op afrikaans, omdat platt is so naby aan die nederlandse taal wat die basis is vir Afrikaans.



Edited by Iversen on 03 November 2010 at 1:55am

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Magnus13
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mybestwaytolearnspan
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 Message 2119 of 3959
06 November 2010 at 11:30pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:

Now some may ask: how can one single page take so long? And in Bahasa, which reputedly
is extraordinarily easy to learn? Well, there is extensive reading and intensive
reading. In the extensive version you just go for the meaning, and that would take much
less time. Intensive reading (with copying and making a hyperliteral translation) must
be slow because its purpose is to suck every shred of information out of a text
passage, ie. learn all words and internalise all contructions. For instance I search
for roots of all words because learning the roots is the key to learning this language
(or rather these languages, because Malayan and Indonesian seem to be roughly as
different as Danish and Norwegian).


Hello,

    I am new to this forum and I was wondering if you could elaborate on extensive and
intensive study. Assuming that intensive comes first, when is one ready to move on to
extensive study? And, when one does move on, would one still study intensively? What
are the benefits and drawbacks of each? I understand that there are no rules that are
set in stone, but I would like to know what is optimal in your opinion.

Sorry For All the Questions,
Thank You
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Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 4835 days ago

9078 posts - 16470 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
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 Message 2120 of 3959
07 November 2010 at 11:02pm | IP Logged 
I have written about the distinction between intensive and extensive reading before, for instance in my Guide to language learning, part 1 message 6. But if you cut it down to the essentials then an activity is intensive if I study all the details, and it is extensive if I just plow ahead with as little concern for details as possible.

Extensive activities: If I sit down in a comfy chair with a book or magazine I will probably only look up a word or expression if a whole passage is incomprehensible without it. Or I will speak or write knowing fully well that I make errors. But trying to speak or write 100 % correctly would probably block me, and then I would lose the important thing in these exercises, namely the constant drive forwards.

Intensive activities: I often sit down and copy a passage in some language by hand, in some cases I even make a hyperliteral translation (one which stick to the structures of the target languages rather than the language it is supposed to represent). And then I make sure I know and understand the meaning of all words and contructions, all case markers and other endings and the syntactical structure of the phrases. And the unknown words goes into wordlists as an alternative to dictionaries.

This kind detailed study is slow, but gives you a lot of knowledge about a language. However knowledge isn't enough to make a language active, and therefore the extensive methods are also essential - but probably more when you are past the beginner stage.

I hope that is enough explanation.



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