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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 2569 of 3959
17 August 2011 at 12:35am | IP Logged 
Lingua Gothica ex traductione Bibliae de Ulfila modice nota est, quandoquidem linguae Burgundiana, Gepidae, Swebiae et vandalicae paene ignotae sunt. Quam dinosauri, familia lingvae Germanicae orientales obsolevit post spatio temporis peregrinationium: Theoderic rex ostrogothorum qui Italiam regnabat anno domini DXXVI mortuus est, et domus sua iam anno domini MLV cum morto Teiae peritus est. In peninsula iberica exercitus arabicus regnum Visigothis terminaverunt anno domini DCCXII. Omnes credebant Gothes 'praeteriti' esse, sed vestigium illorum in Paeninsula Crimaea superstitus sunt. In spatio annorum 1554-1562 unus Augerius Gislenius Busbequius legatus Flandrus monarcharum Austriacorum erat, et ille postea librum magnum de experientibus suis scripsit, et liber iste fons nostra unica est lingvae ultimis gothicis est. Hodie ego relationem suam in sito ling.everywitchway.net legi (cum translatio in anglicam lingvam). Gothis viventes circa 1560 convenire Besbequei certe inopinati fuit, sed nunc impossibile est - extincti sunt. Autor sitūs 'everywitchway' amator linguae culturaeque Germanorum est et in Youtubo lectiones linguae Gothicae proferret.

This evening I have read the report by a diplomat to the Ottoman court about his visit to the peninsula Crimea, where he met some of the last surviving Goths ... and no, I'm not referrring to pale youngsters in black clothes and black color around their eyes. The real Goths was a tribe that wandered through Eastern Europa to the Mediterranean area, and for a time they rules places like Italy (after the collapse of the Western Roman empire) and Spain. But they were never more than a ruling minority which treated the local populations relatively well, but didn't mingle with them, and when their strongholds were conquered by Eastern Romans and Arabs Goths simply vanished, leaving few traces of their own languages except an incomplete translation of the Bible.

So when the Flemish diplomat in Vienna Busbeq met some real living Goths in the Crimean Peninsula (then undr Turkish rule) it must have been like meeting a herd of wholly rhinoceros in your favorite ski terrain. Luckily Busbec included a detailed description of their language plus a wordlist in a book he wrote about his experiences, and to this day his report is the only detailed source about the last Goths we have got . The text is found on a homepage called ling.everywitchway.net , which is the product of a man from Minneapolis who apparently is complete infatuated with the early Germanic languages - he has even made lectures on Youtube about the Gothic language.


Edited by Iversen on 18 August 2011 at 9:30pm

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Iversen
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 Message 2570 of 3959
17 August 2011 at 11:52pm | IP Logged 
I got my Italian training this evening by listening to SuperQuark on Raiuno, one of my two favorite programs on an otherwise not too brilliant channel.

I got my Swedish, English and Spanish training by translating a Swedish poem into the two other languages. And actually I felt that I should do some more of this - it is a real test of your skills. Of course you shouldn't be translating when you speak a language in conversations, but it is too easy to fall in the trap of using a restricted code in speech. Translations kick your defenses down because you haven't chosen what to say or write with one eye on your personal comfort - you are pressed to solve problems instead of avoiding them.

I also watched QI on BBC - in English, but Mr. Fry isn't above delivering quotes in Italian without a translation (for instance "se non è vero è ben trovato"). A few days ago Mr. superbrain Rory McGrath demonstrated in that he knew not only the periodical system by heart, but also a fair sample of scientific Latin names for British birds. Pure bliss to watch, even though a less endowed envious co-combattant tried to spoil Mr. McGrath's great moment by pretending that he was being swallowed alive by a thing below his desk - which unfortunately wasn't the case.

And today I had a meeting in another town and I went there by train, around 75 minutes each way. I spent the time reading something I bought in Copenhagen a while ago: The Lord of the Rings in Esperanto. Well, not all of it of course...

ESP: Hodiaŭ mi havis kunvenon en najbara urbo Viborgo, kaj sekve mi elspezis du kaj duono horojn vojaĝanta trajne. Mi legis la prologon kaj la unuan du ĉapitrojn de la "Mastro de la Ringoj" - sed estos longe ĝis mi atingitos la finon de ĉi tiu eksterordinara vojaĝo. Mi ĝojas certigi ke la tradukiston de ĉi tiu laboro retenis la vorton 'orko' por la orkos de sinjoro Tolkien - la tradukisto de la Hobito uzis la vorton "goblino" kiu klare estas neĝuste - koboldoj estas akvoj spiritoj kiu vivas sole kaj loĝas en riveretoj kaj lagetoj kaj manĝas senatentajn vojaĝantojn kaj ĉevalojn. Orkoj estas violantaj kaj malbelaj bestegoj kiu faras malbonegajn farojn kaj moviĝas sin en grupoj. Mi ankaŭ rimarkis ke objektaj predikatoj ne havas fina 'no' en Esperanto.


Edited by Iversen on 18 August 2011 at 12:11am

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Iversen
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 Message 2571 of 3959
18 August 2011 at 9:02pm | IP Logged 
ES: En la aŭtobuso-renturnanta-el-la-mia-laborloko Gandalfo klarigis al sinjoro Frodo ke la ringo kiun li ricevis de sinjoro Bilbo estos tre danĝera - kaj ankaŭ kial estos tre danĝera. Estas la fama sceno kie Gandalfo ĵetas la ringon en la ardanta fajrangulo, kaj la teksto skribita kun fajraj literojn aperas. Gandalfo estanta grandega poligloto povis traduki ĝin: "unu Ringo ilin regas, Unu ilin prenas, Unu Ringo en mallumonilin gvidas kajkatenas". Vi povas lerni Quenya ĉi tie, sed ne utilas - la teksto* de l'ringo estas skribita en la lingvo de Mordor (hehe!). Mordor signifikas "Malhela Lando" en Sindarin kaj "Ombroj" en Quenya - falsaj amikoj ekzistis jam en la Dua Epoko, laŭ sinjoro Tolkieno.   

*Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul,
ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.

PORT: Se você prefere aprender as línguas de Tolkien através do Português, se pode faze-lo aqui

Sco: Ah hae an aw been at readin Scots the day, acause ah juist fund a blog (juistscots.blogspot.com) wi texts ae Scots. Here is a bittie faer youse:

.. this young English laddie speirt: "Bob, did you have the flu when you were in England?".
"I've never lived in England". A reponed, "I just passed through it on my way to Australia" (...)    
"Yes, but you know what I mean!" he said.
"Would it not be easier for everybody if you said what you meant then people wouldn't have to try and work it out for themselves?" wis ma repone.
Anywey, ye ken whit A mean (...)


Ah fund an a link tae anither hamepage ... well, it wis all o'er the plais at juistscots .. but the ayecan wis less guid. It sayed that thare'l be a referendum in 2011 whar all the Scotsmen (an Scotswimen) shall be asked whither thay can spake and write and read and unnderstaun Scots. An thare is an an explanation in plain Sassenach:

"If you were brought up to speak a local Scottish dialect, or you have learned to speak the dialect of the area where you have chosen to live, or both, this means that you can speak Scots. If you find very difficult, or impossible, to speak the Scottish dialect of the area where you were brought up, and also cannot speak the dialect of the area you have chosen to live, this means that you do not speak Scots."

Ah culd hae said that shorter: If ye can speak Scots ye can speak Scots. If ye cannae speak Scots ye cannae speak Scots. Thay must hae had a langage consultant tae help them with this exquisite piece o Englis prose: a consultant tells ye wit ye aready know, an than he stours awa wit a seckful o yer mony (siller).


Edited by Iversen on 20 August 2011 at 7:34pm

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Iversen
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 Message 2572 of 3959
20 August 2011 at 7:02pm | IP Logged 
DA: Jeg har just afsluttet et projekt, der har taget en del tid det sidste par dage, nemlig at indscanne alle min mors fotografier fra de sidste ca. 3 år så hun kan få dem ind på sin computer og se dem på en stor skærm. Og det er naturligvis sket på bekostning af mine sprogstudier. Heldigvis er der én aktivitet som man kan lave mens man scanner og taster: se fjernsyn. Og så snart jeg er færdig med at skrive det her, sætter jeg mig for første gang i flere dage i min lænestol og slapper af med lidt grammatik og en ordliste eller to.

IT: Fortunatamente Raiuno si è mostrato clemente a un povero telespettatore con gusti atipici - ho potuto vedere Linea Verde, Quark Atlante, una ora intera sull'Etiopia e adesso un programma chiamato "Mare Rosso" sulla natura ed i beduini di questa regione. Nel programma 'Overland' dove si parlava dell'Etiopia ho appreso che Italia ha una "Casa Italiana" nella città capitale Addis Abeba, e che lì si da corsi Italiani per bambini - e la parte più popolare di questi corsi è ovviamente la presentazione di cartoni animati. In questo momento ci sono beduini arabi che corrono nel deserto "comme se fosse un deserto". Secondo il programma, questi beduini parlano un Arabo arcaico.

ESP: Hieraŭ mi laboris ĝis 22 - mi trovis kelkajn aferojn kiuj ne funkcis en unu programo kion mi esperis povi uzi por la komparado de datumoj de ses serviloj, kaj mi longe dauris trovi alternativajn (kaj pli komplikajn) metodojn por fari tian analizon. En la aŭtobuso-renturnanta-el-la-mia-laborloko mi asistis Frodon iri ĝis la finan gastejon antaŭ la sfero de Elrondo duonoelfo. Estis danĝera promenado, kun teruraj nazgoloj rajdantaj tien kaj reen laŭ la aŭtovojon serĉantaj la ringoportanton, kaj la pasado tra unu arbaro malhela estis ankaŭ dubinda. Mi kaj Frodo esperis vane atingi la lokon de Elrond jam hieraŭ, sed mi devas ŝajne legi pli longajn sekciojn de la librojn ĉiu tago (ili legi plu rapide), alie kompatindula Frodo ne atingos la fajron de Orodruino antaŭ ol Kristnasko.

Yesterday I had to work late because several functions in a program I use for data analysis didn't work the way you could reasonably have expected and it took a long time to find an alternative strategy. Goodbye study time. However I did of course help Frodo along - we reached the last inn before Elrond's place, but that's not quite fast enough. I may have to sit down to read some more substantial sections of those books, otherwise he won't get to Orodruin before Christmas.

Today I have spent most of the time scanning and registrating my mother's photos from the last 2-3 years or so. But one thing I could do at the same time was watching television, and somewhat unexpectedly Raiuno came to my rescue with a whole series of reasonable to excellent programs in Italian: something about Italian fishers, a whole hour about Etiopia and another hour about beduins in Arabia.

And now I can finally sit down in my armchair to relax with some grammar and maybe a few worldlists. Or maybe I can help Frodo to go to Rivendelo - that inn doesn't seem too safe, and after the wood he might not be too interested in camping outdoors.


Edited by Iversen on 21 August 2011 at 6:05pm

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Sprachprofi
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 Message 2573 of 3959
20 August 2011 at 7:26pm | IP Logged 
Ofta eraro: senhoro => sinjoro
Sinjoro kaj sinjorino.

Ĝenerale, via Esperanto jam tre bonas!

BTW, for polyglots like us, there's one rule to help with guessing the right Esperanto
word: Zamenhof tried to avoid ambiguity. I imagine that's why he chose "sinjoro" as
opposed to "senhoro", which as sen-horo could mean "without hour". On a much more useful
level, the re- stems from English, Latin or French are now ri- (as in Italian) unless the
word meaning actually has something to do with "again" or "back". regardi = to guard
again; rigardi = to regard

Edited by Sprachprofi on 20 August 2011 at 7:29pm

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Iversen
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 Message 2574 of 3959
20 August 2011 at 7:36pm | IP Logged 
Dankon al Sprachprofi. Estas tre danĝere kredi ke Esperanto estas memkompreneblaĵo.
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Fasulye
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 Message 2575 of 3959
21 August 2011 at 7:45am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
DA: Jeg har just afsluttet et projekt, der har taget en del tid det sidste par dage, nemlig at indscanne alle min mors fotografier fra de sidste ca. 3 år så hun kan få dem ind på sin computer og se dem på en stor skærm. Og det er naturligvis sket på bekostning af mine sprogstudier. Heldigvis er der én aktivitet som man kan lave mens man scanner og taster: se fjernsyn. Og så snart jeg er færdig med at skrive det her, sætter jeg for første gang i flere dage i min lænestol og slapper af med lidt grammatik og en ordliste eller to.


Ubekendte ord: (DK - NL)

- Det er sket = Dit is gebeurd
- ske = gebeuren (en ske = een lepel)
- pâ bekostning af = op kosten van
- heldigvis = gelukkig (adv.)
- sart = binnenkort (adv.)

Her er ikke sâ mange ubekendte ord for mig!

Det er godt at du skriver pâ dansk.

Fasulye




Edited by Fasulye on 21 August 2011 at 11:10am

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Iversen
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 Message 2576 of 3959
23 August 2011 at 7:39pm | IP Logged 
DA: Efter min mors fotografier måtte jeg gang i gang med et andet monster-projekt: at lave internetversioner af artiklerne i min rejseklubs klubblad, og det nummer som det drejer sig om er tilfældigvis et jubilæumsnummer, som er halvanden gang så tykt som et normalt nummer. Og nej, jeg blev ikke færdig i weekenden.

ESP: Pro tio bedaŭrinda Frodo nur estis alvenita al stlejo de Elrond, kaj li devas daŭre ĝisatendi la grandan kunvenon, kion mi memoras el la eldono angla de Harper & Collins. Kun Frodo venis unu Grinĉjo ... Grinĉjo ?? Mi ne memoris unu Grinĉjo en la angla eldono. Komparinda kun tio mi trovis ke Grinĉjo estas Pippin:

- tio sonas kiel rimpeco de maljuna Bilbo, -diris Grinĉjo" (p. 98)

'That sounds like a bit of Old Bilbo's rhyming', said Pippin' (p. 72).


Grinc(j)o estas la sonaro de griloj (cricket, daneo 'fårekylling'). Ĉu "pippin" signifas grilo? Ne, angla "pippin" estas frukto, unu speco de pomo. Kaj estis ankaŭ avo de Karlomanjo. Kaj unu Gaja - kiu estas? "Merry", memekompreneble. Almenaŭ Sam angla restas Sam (Sam Vato), Frodo estas Frodo kaj Gandalf estas Gandalfo. Dankon.

FR: Après la bataille entre le patricien et la vile plebs dans un autre fil je me suis souvenu d'une oeuvre qui n'est pas sur la liste des grandes livres, encore qu'elle a inauguré tout un nouveau genre littéraire, à savoir le bouquin de poèmes en prose "Gaspard de la Nuit" d' Aloysius (Louis) Bertrand, pauvre poète qui mourut en 1841. Plus précisement, je me suis rappellé le poème "Le Marchand" de la première partie du livre:

Nul bruit, si ce n'est le froissement de feuillets de vélin sous les doigts du docteur Huylten, qui ne détachait les yeux de sa bible jonchée de gothiques enluminures que pour admirer l'or et le pourpre de deux poissons captifs aux humides flancs d'un bocal.
Les battants de la porte roulèrent: c'était un marchand fleuriste qui, les bras chargés de plusieurs pots de tulipes, s'excusa d'interrompre la lecture d'un aussi savant personnage.
(...)
- Une tulipe! s'écria le vieillard courroucé, une tulipe! ce symbole de l'orgueil et de la luxure qui ont engendré dans la malheureuse cité de Wittemberg la détestable hérésie de Luther et de Mélanchton! »
Maître Huylten agrafa le fermail de sa bible, rangea ses lunettes dans leur étui, et tira le rideau de la fenêtre, qui laissa voir au soleil une fleur de la passion avec sa couronne d'épine, son éponge, son fouet, ses clous et les cinq plaies de Notre-Seigneur.
(...)


Ce qui est drôle, c'est que j'ai traduit cette oeuvre magistrale en Danois et même réussit à le faire publier, mais jusque 2009 je n'ai pas possédé un exemplaire du livre - je l'ai traduit d'après une édition louée à une bibliothèque quand j'ai étudié le français. Mais maintenant je possède le livre dans l'édition nrf Poésie de Gallimard - à 7,70 € (ça va, ce genre de prix!). Pourtant j'ai depuis toujours possédé une autre oeuvre encore moins connue (et plus poussiereuse) de Bertrand: sa biographie du roi Louis XIV - et oui, je l'ai lue.

Encore une échantillon du bouquin de Bertrand, cette fois une vignette écrite par un certain Pierre Vicot:

"Nostre art s’apprent en deux manières, c’est à sauoir par enseignement d’un maistre, bouche à bouche, et non autrement, ou par inspiration et réuélation diuines; ou bien par les liures lesquelz sont moult obscurs et embrouillés; et pour en iceux trouuer accordance et vérité moult conuient estre subtil, patient, studieux et vigilant."

--

ENG: I have spent much of the weekend transferring the magazine of my travel club into html for our homepage, and I'm not even halfway through. So poor mr. Frodo and his companions may have arrived at mr. Elrond's place, but they'll have to wait for a while before the grand meeting that formally establishes the travel group that supposedly should help Frodo to get to Oroduin, where he is supposed to throw his preciouss ring into the fire.

DA: Den danske spøgefugl Rune T. Kidde har i sin gennemgang af de store Litterærlige klassikere beskrevet Tolkiens udødelige mesterværk i disse termer (p.22): "Jo, det handler om den her horde af trolde og tegnefilmsfigurer og sære gummidyr og den slags som allesammen fiser rundt side efter side for at finde på et nyt efternavn til Ebbe Reich og hans kollektiv. (...)"

ENG: "Yeah, it is all about this here horde of trolls and cartoon figures and weird rubber animals who all shuffle around page after page in order to find a new name to Ebbe Reich and his commune ("human collective")." The quote refers to a Danish author and his folks who dubbed both their dwelling and themselves "Kløvedal" (the Danish name for "Rivendell").

The members of this forum may have noticed the skirmish in another thread between an irate patrician in defence of the reading of great books and the ignoble plebs who think that everything is equally good. Well, I have not yet succombed to the lure of Justin Bieber and Barbara Cartland and Manchester United, and I don't even have a Facebook profile. Au contraire, this ignominous plebeian was reminded of a book he once translated from a copy borrowed at a local library and somehow got published in Danish: "Gaspard de la Nuit" by Aloysius Bertrand, who died in poverty in 1841. The long quote is from a prose poem called the "The merchant", in which a tulipe vendor dares to enter the sombre study chamber of a learned doctor in the midst of his studies. The additional quote is a vignet text from a book about alchemy by a Middle French author Pierre Vicot, and I quoted it because it describes in unforgettable French prose the attractions of old obscure books.

To which even I sometimes succomb, believe it or not.

Edited by Iversen on 23 August 2011 at 8:56pm



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