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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Fasulye
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 Message 993 of 3959
24 June 2009 at 5:54am | IP Logged 
Thanks for the wish with the nice picture, Jar-ptitsa. My birthday was on 22 June.

Fasulye

Edited by Fasulye on 24 June 2009 at 5:55am

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Iversen
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 Message 994 of 3959
24 June 2009 at 4:08pm | IP Logged 
... aargh, I forgot to congratulate you on your birthday. Please receive my belated, but sincere wishes for a happy birthday to you.
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Iversen
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 Message 995 of 3959
25 June 2009 at 12:18am | IP Logged 
FR: J'ai eu d'autres obligations ce soir, me j'ai pourtant trouvé le temps de lire le log "TAC 2009" de DaraghM. Il utilise les matériaux des courses de FSI, et il se demande si on peut vraiment dire "coins fenêtres" pour les places près des fenêtres dans les trains Français. Je ne me souviens pas de cette expression, mais je sais qui devrait le savoir: le SNCF! Sur le site de cette compagnie ferroviaire il y a un petit
coin didactique
, où on peut apprendre comment réserver une place dans un train Français. Si je me trouvais dans l'obligation de me procurer d'une réservation d'un place assise près d'une fenêtre dans un train Français, je dirais probablement "une place fenêtre", mais la chose curieuse des pages informatives de la SCNF, c'est qu'elles évitent soigneusement de'employer cet expression - ou à vrai dire toute autre expression: on explique que pour les voyageurs de la 2. classe il y a les options couloir et fenêtre, mais pas des places "couloir" et "fenêtre". Il existe une page séparée qui traite uniquement des TGV, et ici on trouve l'expression "emplacement côté fenêtre", - c'est tout.

En effet mes recherches avec Goggle semblent indiquer* qu'il n'y ait aucune expression vraiment commune en Français pour ces places. Pas "place côté fenêtre", pas "place fenêtre" et pas "emplacement côté fenêtre" malgré la page indiquée ci-dessus.

* Ma faute - j'ai oublié de contrôler les expressions "siège côté couloir" et surtout "siège côté fenêtre"!

En recherchant cette question j'ai pourtant appris quelques expressions utiles: la majorité des wagons modernes ont seulement une seule grande salle, qui s'appelle "salle". Seules les trains Corails ont des wagons avec compartiments. En Danois un compartiment s'appelle un "kupé", ce qui a l'air 100% français, mais non - il n'y a pas de 'kupés' dans les trains Français (c'est seulement les autos qui peuvent être du type 'coupé"). Pour les voyageurs riches il y a ces options sur la première classe:

Solo isolé : côté fenêtre sans vis-à-vis, pas de siège passager à côté du vôtre
Duo isolé : deux siège en vis-à-vis pas de sièges passagers à vos côtés
Duo : deux sièges l'un a côté de l'autre, pas de vis-à-vis
Carré : 4 sièges en vis-à-vis (2 et 2)

Dans les trains TGV (trains à grande vitesse) les options foisonnent tout carrément, ce qui résulte dans la liste suivante:

Fenêtre: Emplacement côté fenêtre
Couloir: Emplacement côté couloir
Carré: 4 sièges face à face
Kiosque: Sièges disposés en U en bout de train
Haut: Trains duplex uniquement - Emplacement en salle haute
Bas: Trains duplex uniquement - Emplacement en salle basse
Salle: Emplacement en salle et non en compartiment
Compartiment: Corail uniquement - Compartiment de 6 sièges ou Compartiment de 8 sièges
Isolé Solo: Place fenêtre, personne à côté ni en face, souvent équipée d'une prise électrique      
Duo Vis à Vis: 2 sièges face à face
Duo Côte à Côte: 2 sièges côte à côte
Club 4: 4 sièges face à face
Club 6: ZTEOZ uniquement - 6 sièges face à face

-------

Most of this post will be irrelevant for everybody expect those who intend to travel by train in France, so I will just refer to the log of DaraghM (24/6-09), where he expresses some reservations concerning the proper name for "window seats" in French - the expression "coins fenêtres" (literally 'window-corners') didn't seem to be up to date. I decided to find out what the correct name is right now, so I have been studying the homepages of SNFC - the ordinary one and the one for TGV trains (those that can run at 300 km/h). And lo and behold, there is not really an expression in common use for these seats, as none of the alternatives reached 500 hits in Goggle*, - including the one and only direct reference in the TGV manual: "emplacement côté fenêtre". The French speak about different options: "fenêtre" and "couloir" (window and aisle (or corridor, but see this explanation), but apparently they don't see these as something that defines different kinds of seats. However this does hinder them in having a lot of weird expressions about seats, especially in TGV trains.

* EDIT: for some reason it didn't occur to me to check the corresponding expressions with "siège" while checking frequencies in Google

One strange thing: in Denmark we call a compartment "kupé", and this word must have come from French - but in French the correct word is "compartiment".


Edited by Iversen on 25 June 2009 at 10:04pm

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Jar-ptitsa
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 Message 996 of 3959
25 June 2009 at 1:02am | IP Logged 
Personally I say : siège côté couloir or siège côté fenêtre, but I'm not often in a train, therefore maybe the people say those things which you wrote.
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Iversen
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 Message 997 of 3959
25 June 2009 at 1:20am | IP Logged 
Jar-ptitsa wrote:
Personally I say : siège côté couloir or siège côté fenêtre, but I'm not often in a train, therefore maybe the people say those things which you wrote.


No, they say "siège" much more often than "place":
"siège côté fenêtre": 341.000 hits !!! *
"siège côté couloir": 40.400 hits ! *
"place côté fenêtre": 432
"place côté couloir": 432

I'm somewhat puzzled as to why I forgot to check the expressions with "siège", having travelled quite a bit in French trains, but now the correct solution has at least been been been pointed out, - thanks to Jar-Ptitsa

* EDIT: don't believe these numbers, - see the discussion in the following postings

---------

IT: La neurofisiologista Italiana Alice Mado Proverbio ha svolto studi sul concetto di lingua madre. I suoi soggetti erano interpreti simultanei di lingua madre Italiana "di notevole esperienza ed elevata professionalità", impiegati all'Unione europea e specializzati nella lingua inglese. Eppure si è potuto vedere una ampiezza molto maggiore nella loro attività cerebrale quando se le presentava parole Italiane rispetto a quando se le presentava parole inglese. E le differenze erano ancora più importanti con altre lingue come il tedesco, che non sapevano così bene: "un primo picco di attività ERP (denominato N170), osservabile sulla regione visiva sinistra del cervello in un intervallo di tempo tra 150 e 200 ms dalla presentazione delle parole, aveva un'ampiezza diversa a seconda che la parola letta appartenesse alla lingua madre o a lingue apprese successivamente". Se ho ben capito bene questo risultato, significa che le lettere - vale a dire la lingua scritta - mette la sua stampa sulle lingue imparati degli adulti, al contrario della lingua materna (o altre lingue imparate da bambini di meno di 5 anni).

"L'apprendimento della traduzione in inglese del termine coltello (knife), dopo la formazione delle conoscenze sul mondo, corrisponderà all’acquisizione di un’informazione di tipo puramente fonetico (cioè uditivo) e ortografico (cioè grafico), e non condividerà il substrato neurobiologico della memoria dell’individuo, se non in modo indiretto."

--- The Italian neurophysiologist Mado Proverbio has investigated the responses in the brain to Italian and English words, using an extremely accomplished group of EU-employed simultaneous interpreters as her guinea pigs. They were Italians and had English as their primary second language. She found that the brain activity was remarkably different when presented with Italian words, compared with the the situation when the words were English. The results suggested that the identifation of foreign language words primarily was based on the outer shape of the letters, to some extent also on the phonetic 'shape'. In contrast the Italian words triggered much more content related acitivity, which "Proverbio attributed [...] to the fact [that] the brain absorbs the mother tongue at a time when it is also storing early visual, acoustic, emotional and other nonlinguistic knowledge." Only foreign languages learnt before the 5. year displayed the same reactions as the maternal language.

So it does matter when you learn your first foreign language... do it before you are 5 years old!

EDIT: ho corretto un sacco di errori di ortografia nella sezione in lingua Italiana


Edited by Iversen on 01 July 2009 at 1:13pm

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reineke
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 Message 998 of 3959
25 June 2009 at 4:56am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
Jar-ptitsa wrote:
Personally I say : siège côté couloir or siège côté fenêtre, but I'm not often in a train, therefore maybe the people say those things which you wrote.


No, they say "siège" much more often than "place":
"siège côté fenêtre": 341.000 hits !!!
"siège côté couloir": 40.400 hits !
"place côté fenêtre": 432
"place côté couloir": 432

I'm somewhat puzzled as to why I forgot to check the expressions with "siège", having travelled quite a bit in French trains, but now the correct solution has at least been been been pointed out, - thanks to Jar-Ptitsa

---------



It's possible to simply say "côté fenêtre" without referring to the seat in the same sentence. Most people first make sure they can get a seat. If one refers to it, it doesn't have to be stuck together "siège côté fenêtre" etc.

"siège côté fenêtre" seems to give only about 310 hits in Google and "place côté fenêtre 482.
"siège côté couloir": 600
"place côté couloir": 424

siège près de la fenêtre 550
place près de la fenêtre 3,400

The last one obviously has other meanings as well.

then you have
place à côté de la fenêtre 1300
siège 269

They come in different contexts. The transportation authority might refer to seats differently on a ticket and in a brochure. People chatting about holidays or simpy reserving a ticket would speak differently from a travel agent. Siège is also the physical thing on which we sit and this is how it would be referred to in seating plans that you'll find online.

Plan des voitures

"Nos trains sont plus grands que des avions gros-porteurs. On le sait, on a compté le nombre de places : 766.

À noter:
La disposition des sièges varie selon les voitures, le plan présenté ici est indicatif. Nous ferons tout notre possible pour satisfaire votre demande de place selon les disponibilités".

...Siège côté couloir et côté fenêtre l'un à côté de l'autre avec une tablette...

EDIT: The study reversed the findings of another study which reversed the findings of another study...

The earliest studies examined people who had learned foreign languages...poorly and compared them with native speakers. They found that different areas in the brain lit up when processing language. The second study examined advanced learners and found that the areas that lit up were identical. Yay! This latest study examined interpreters but they discovered that these areas did not share the same depth.

Edited by reineke on 25 June 2009 at 5:35am

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Fasulye
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 Message 999 of 3959
25 June 2009 at 6:13am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
... aargh, I forgot to congratulate you on your birthday. Please receive my belated, but sincere wishes for a happy birthday to you.


Thanks! Mange tak!

Edited by Fasulye on 25 June 2009 at 6:14am

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Iversen
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 Message 1000 of 3959
25 June 2009 at 7:13am | IP Logged 
reineke wrote:

It's possible to simply say "côté fenêtre" without referring to the seat in the same sentence. Most people first make sure they can get a seat. If one refers to it, it doesn't have to be stuck together "siège côté fenêtre" etc.

"siège côté fenêtre" seems to give only about 310 hits in Google and "place côté fenêtre 482.
"siège côté couloir": 600
"place côté couloir": 424

siège près de la fenêtre 550
place près de la fenêtre 3,400

The last one obviously has other meanings as well.

then you have
place à côté de la fenêtre 1300
siège 269


It was late, and my brain had stopped functioning ... so I forgot the quotes that indicate that you search the whole expression and not just its components. The frequencies indicated by Reineke are much more in line with my own expectations, namely that the French can make a reservations of a window seat, but they don't normally use a specific term for that seat. Whereas Anglophones have "window seat", and the Danes are specific about on their "vinduespladser" or "gangpladser" (aisle seats). So now I can remove some of my panickstricken corrections to the original post about French train-seat reservology.

Edit: the next post will be no. 1000 in this thread. The sky is the limit.



Edited by Iversen on 25 June 2009 at 10:23pm



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