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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log Post Reply
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tractor
Tetraglot
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Norway
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 Message 2425 of 3959
30 May 2011 at 5:59pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
SP: Sí, desde un punto de vista estrictamente lingüístico el gallego está
suficientemente cerca de portugués para que se pueda decir que es el mismo idioma. Pero los Gallegos viven
en otro país y sus ortografías son diferentes (muchos 'x' en la ortografía más comun), y probablemente le
gustaría ver a Gallego como lengua independiente.

Parece que hay un debate en la sociedad gallega entre diferentes posturas:
http://es.
wikipedia.org/wiki/Idioma_gallego#Debate_entre_autonomistas_ y_reintegracionistas

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Iversen
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berejst.dk
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 Message 2426 of 3959
30 May 2011 at 11:43pm | IP Logged 
I have as usual watched TV in a of number languages:

CAT: Per exemple, vaig veure la previsió del temps en espanyol a TVE - i em vaig adonar que jo podria haver triat un moment per a viatgar no molt adequat: se reporten pluges torrencials en tot el pais - tot i que el pitjor se hauria acabat. Em vaig adonar també que s'estima precipitacions en litres en Espanya, no en milimetros com a Dinamarca. I hi havia un munt de galons en aquestes plujas, que acaban de passar per Espanya en l'últim cap de setmana. En la pròxima setmana haura amb sort només "churrabascos"... Jo tinc que portar tant una paraigüa com un impermeable!

GE: Ich höre gerade jetzt nicht Fernsehsendungen, sondern Videos auf Schwizerdütsch von podcast.paravan.ch. Und es ist nicht schwer zu verstehen, wie ich erwartet hatte - mein Kauderwelschbuch ist halt irreführend, weil es so sehr damit beschäftigt ist mit malerischen Ausdrücke, daß es vergißt, den Menschen zu sagen, wie es dort unten tatsächlich gesprochen wird.

I have watched the Spanish weather report at TVE, and they have apparently had torrential rain in this weekend. Now there will be a couple of nice days with just a few showers, but in the second half of the week the weather will get cold and wet again. One funny thing: large amounts of rain are apparently counted in litres in Spain, not in millimeters as in Denmark.

Besides I have found a site with a number of podcasts about "geocaching" in Swiss German - some kind of hide and seek thing for grown ups. Based on my curiosity-happy Kauderwelsch tome I had expected that Schwizerdütsch was difficult to understand, but it really is not that hard. I have of course visited the country several times, but not since my return to language learning.


Edited by Iversen on 31 May 2011 at 12:03am

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Iversen
Super Polyglot
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Denmark
berejst.dk
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Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
Personal Language Map

 
 Message 2428 of 3959
01 June 2011 at 7:40am | IP Logged 
Kuikentje wrote:
Iversen wrote:
Fine picture, and very instructive. I guess few people even knew how much space Leonese and Aragonese once took up on the peninsula. The only thing that may be problematic with the picture is its size.


It was too large? sorry for that but I can rezise only the jpeg ones, not the gif. Yes I can make the gif ones smaller as well, but then they become jpeg and with only one of the picture.

test, maybe this is better? :



unfortunately, between that large one and the extremely little one I can't find a size:




The new size is much better. And nobody can say that this isn't a relevant picture.

I noticed that Catalan in Cataluña and Valencian in the province of Valencia are marked in the same way on the 2000 map. This is not the way I see the situation: in Catalunya you actually hear a lot of Catalan, but not in for instance Alicante. And in Valencia town you can sometimes hear Valencian (which is the name for Catalan as spoken in Valencia province), but ordinary Castillian is much more common. In the countryside and smaller town towards the North Valencian may still be the predominant language, but I heard more Castillian in Xátiva. So the correct marking should be spaced-out 'Castilian' stripes in Catalunya, closedly positioned stripes in Northern Valencia and maybe even pure olive-coloured in the province to the south of Valencia town.

I'm less well-informed about the situation in Galicia and in the areas previously dominated my Leonese and Aragonese, but my guess based on what I can read on the internet is that Gallego is alive, and that the other two have been absorbed by Castillian, maybe leaving some traces in pronunciation and vocabulary, but not more than that. Besides there is one valley in Spain, Aran, where Occitan is the official local language, but this is not marked on the map.

Later this summer I'm going to visit Sardinia, and I'll be staying in the Northern part of the island. Here the map indicates that the local languages is Corsican rather than Sardinian. Time will tell whether I her most Italian, Sardinian or Corsican - it will be quite interesting from a linguistical point of view!


Edited by Iversen on 14 September 2011 at 12:21am

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tractor
Tetraglot
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Norway
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Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan
Studies: French, German, Latin

 
 Message 2429 of 3959
01 June 2011 at 4:49pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
Besides there is one valley in Spain, Aran, where Occitan is the official local language, but this is
not marked on the map.

It is marked on the map, but it's not easy to spot because the animated gif is changing so fast and the colours for
Castilian and Occitan are very similar. If you are able to stop the animation and look closely, you'll see that the Aran
Valley as of year 2000 had three colours: one for Occitan, one for Catalan and one for Castilian.
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Iversen
Super Polyglot
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Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 4844 days ago

9078 posts - 16470 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
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 Message 2430 of 3959
01 June 2011 at 9:35pm | IP Logged 
OK, things went a bit too fast - I didn't see that spot

Now I'm going to read some printouts from a site called diplomatarium, where you can read old Danish letters, archival notices and other original sources. Did I write 'Danish'? Well, the kind of Danish you see here is Middle Danish, which is as far from Modern Danish as Chaucer's language is from Modern English. And in between there are specimens in Latin, Medieval Low German and even some in Middle High German - everything with a translation.

Let's have a bit of Danish from 1408 ... just ONE sentence:

´Wi Bo meth gudhs nadhe bisschop i. Arws. oc alt capitel i then samme stadh. gøræ witerlicht meth thettæ wort opne breff at wi haue spoort grandgifueleghe aff. ælste oc skællegheste mæn oc aff andre som wi haue bæst kunnet/ oc haue wi søcht oc leet æfter breff/ oc haue wi ey kunnet thet nogherlethis wt spørie eller sanneleghere fa atwide eller .i. breff eller noghet ræticheet fynne eller fynne kunne at then øø som Calføø heder som thet slot oc fæste Calføø vppa stander i Nørreiutland liggende eller oc thet samme slot oc fæste Calføø noghen tidh hauer til hørt eller tilhører huerken bisscopsbordhet i. Arws eller capitelit eller domkirken i Arws eller nogher synderlich persone som capitelit. domkirken eller bisscopsdømet i. Arws til hører eller til noghet prelatædøme canekedøme. altre eller til nogher anner guds thiæniste i. fornempde domkirke. oc ey hælder til nogher anner kirke eller kirkæs personæ eller guds thiæniste. i Arws bisscopsdøme. men at thenne forscrefne øø. Calføø oc slot oc fæste Calføø ængen annen til hører oc ængen ræticheet ther til hauer wden konungen 1 . oc konungedømet i. Danmark.

The translation of the site runs as follows:
Vi Bo, af Guds nåde biskop i Århus, og hele kapitlet sammesteds, gør vitterligt med dette vort åbne brev, at vi på det omhyggeligste har forespurgt hos de ældste og fornuftigste mænd og hos andre, således som vi bedst har kunnet, og vi har søgt og ledt efter breve, og vi har hverken på nogen måde kunnet finde i breve og rettigheder, at den ø, der hedder Kalø, beliggende i Nørrejylland, hvorpå slottet og den faste borg Kalø er, eller at samme slot og faste borg Kalø nogensinde har tilhørt eller nu tilhører enten bispebordet i Århus, eller kapitlet eller domkirken i Århus eller nogen enkelt person, som enten hører til kapitlet, domkirken eller bispedømmet i Århus eller til noget prælatembede, noget kannikedømme, noget alter eller til nogen anden gudstjeneste i fornævnte domkirke og heller ikke til nogen anden kirke eller nogen anden kirkelig person eller gudstjeneste inden for Århus bispedømme, men at denne nævnte ø Kalø og slottet og den faste borg Kalø alene tilhører kongen og kongedømmet i Danmark, som udelukkende har ret dertil.

So now I guess that bishop Bo has made it perfectly clear that according to everybody he has asked and every shred of paper he has been able to dig up, the island Kalø and the mighty keep thereupon near Århus never ever belonged to the episcopal see of Aarhus or himself or anybody else in Århus, but only to the king and to him alone and not to anybody else except the king himself. Such verbosity reminds me of some of the sketches of Monty Python, but it wasn't unusual at all in Medieval times.


Edited by Iversen on 01 June 2011 at 9:53pm

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