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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 1145 of 3959
23 July 2009 at 6:46pm | IP Logged 
It may be a minor thing, but it took a long time so I'll just mention it: I have just put links with page numbers on all the summary pages (cfr. page 1 for the permanent list of these summaries):

December 2008 at page 18, covers p. 1-19.

January 2009 at page 30 (scroll down), covers p. 19-29.

February 2009 at page 50, covers p. 29-50.

March 2009 at page 76, covers p. 50-75.

April 2009 at page 101, covers p. 76-100.

May 2009 at page 117, covers p. 101-117.

June 2009 at page 131, covers p. 117-130.


Edited by Iversen on 23 July 2009 at 6:48pm

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 Message 1146 of 3959
23 July 2009 at 7:44pm | IP Logged 
SP: Gracias, Iversen para las paginas indicadas.

Me estoy divertiendo su el sitio www.lingq.com del poligloto Steve Kaufmann para hacer leciones del español y comunicar el los foros en los diferentes idiomas de Steve. Steve Kaufmann es el administrador y habla cotidianamente con los miembros de LingQ en varios idiomas. Para mi son utiles los textos en español (de España y Sudamerica) y los podacasts de estos textos. Y recibo listos de vocabulario de mis palabras desconocidas con una traducción en mi idioma materna y paterna (elegí el inglés!!!). Ahora no trabajo y por eso tengo más tiempo para el estudio de mis idiomas.

Saludos,

Fasulye
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 Message 1147 of 3959
23 July 2009 at 10:58pm | IP Logged 
SP: Conozco bien las ideas de Steve Kaufmann, y he visto sus videos en youtube y hecho el 'tour' de su sitio, però no estoy miembro o cliente del sitio porqué yá tengo otros metodos.

IT: Ho visto un programmo de Raiuno nella seria SuperQuark, dove si è seguito le migraxzioni delle sardina verso la costiera di Africa del Sud colle correnti fredde. La cosa più strana è che la metà delle sardine sopravvivono il viaggio, dove delfini, suli, 'balenopteri di Wrighti' e pescatori tutti prendono il loro parte. Il film è probabilmente inglese o americano, con scenerii stupefacenti e gran orchestra sinfonica in luogo di dell'organo ellettrico giocato da un manico atonato che è si comune oggi, e la voce parla Italiano e nient'altro perché non ci sono interviste. In questo momento si cerca di esplicarci perché le pagode dell'Oriente non si sono scrollate nei terremoti numerosi di questa regione. Ma Superquark non è il solo programma che ho visto a Raiuno. Ieri sera si è mostrato il programma chiamato "Passaggio al Nordovest", ma abbiamo visto gli impianti acquatici sotto il Palazzo Communale di Siena, caravane de sale nella Sahara e altre cose. Generalmente Raiuno è un canale di mente stretto, ma esistano zone di cultura e scienza anche quà.

GR:Αλλά έπρεπε να επικεντρωθεί στην ελληνική και τη ρουμανική γλώσσες; Ναι, και γι'αυτó έχω μελετήθει ορισμένα από τα έγγραφα σχετικά με τους γίγαντες που εκτυπώνονται όταν συζητήσαμε τα φεγγάρια του Kρóνου. Αυτοí προέκυψαν από το αίμα που ψεκάζοται στήν Γαία όταν Κρόνος ανάπτυξη τον πατέρα του τον Ουράνου με δρεπάνι - η ελληνική μυθολογία μπορεί να είναι αρκετά σκληρή!

--------

I know a little bit about Steve Kaufmann's ideas after having seen his videos and studied the free part of his site, - but I have not become a client or member there, I have enough things to do already.

Raiuno has shown a program in the series Superquark this evening, with an impressive film about the yearly migrations of the sardines to the South of South Africa, determined by the cold ocean currents there. The most strange thing is that allegedly half the sardines survive the rconstant attacks of dolphins, gannets, White's toothed whale and hordes of fishermen. The pictures were beautiful, the music was played by a whole symphony orchestra and not the usual tonedeaf madman at an electric organ (or even worse: a synthesizer, this ominous gift from Satan to his servants among us!) and the dubbing was totally in Italian - no interviews where two languages compete. After that there was something about Eastasian pagodas and the reasons that they have survived the earth quakes in that region. Yesterday Raiuno showed "The Northwest Passage", which has little to do with arctic maritime expeditions - but we saw the waterworks under the Townhall of Siena and something about caravans passing through Mali. Raiuno is generally not a channel known for its intelligent programs, but these two are excellent!

But shouldn't I study Romanian and Greek? Well I did. I studied some printouts about the mythological giants that were born from the blood that was spilled on Mother Earth when Kronos (time = Saturn) castrated his father Ouranos with a golden sickle (Uranus, the heaven) - I made them when we discussed the moons of Saturn some time ago. But Greek mythology can be somewhat drastic, and it is interesting that we still admire a civilisation where the preferred kind of love was homosexual pedophilia, and where women - except whores - were rated almost as low as slaves and everything foreign was seen as barbaric. Even their statues were painted, and did not look a bit like the white scarecrows adored by various naive classicists. Maybe a civilisation has to be a raving mad aberration to become famous.


Edited by Iversen on 25 July 2009 at 6:53pm

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Iversen
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 Message 1148 of 3959
24 July 2009 at 5:01pm | IP Logged 
RO: Am menţionat cotidianul.ro ieri. Am citit de asemenea acum o parte din rapoartele în travel.blog.cotidianul.ro. Primul a fost scris de o femeie pe nume Gabriela, care se pare că a plecat la Cairo în convingerea că ea ar putea avea alcool acolo. Dar nu, ea a fost mai uşor să fumeze nargil cu haşiş decît să bere o bere. De asemenea a văzut aree extinse de blocuri în marginea de Cairo, şi şi ghindesc că "Ceaucescu ar fi fost invidios!". Urmatorul scriitor a vizitat Coasta Amalfitană cu Sorrento şi Pompeii, şi în primul rind ea observa că există o curatenie aproape completă în Pompeii: nu un muc de ţigară, nici o frunză. Dar Napoli este situat chiar lângă de Pompei, şi sunt sigur că se poate vedea muchi şi frunze colo. Al treilea turist a vizitat marele mar, unde a văzut studiile de CNN şi "Skycraper-ii New York-ului".

În cele mai multe dintre aceste contribuţii nu sunt utilizate specialele caractere române, şi eu cred că eventual această situaţie va duce la eliminarea oficiala ortografie română. Eu îmi amintesc că am găsit-o foarte enervant în 2006 când am reînvăţat limba -, dar acum nu-mi mai deranjează lectură.

---------

I have spent some time reading travelogues on a Romanian site. In the very first text a Romanian lady had apparently left for Cairo in the belief that it was easy to get liquor there. She found that it was easier to get a waterpipe with hash than a beer, - it almost made her cry. As she wrote "I'm a cristian, and Christ multiplied the wine, not the water or tea". But to no avail.. The next lady visited Pompei and found it to be a very clean place, - but try Napoli... The third visited New York and so forth.

One thing that is worth noticing, is that the special Romanian letters are becoming rarer on the internet. There are some articles here with those signs (and the Romanian Wikipedia uses them), but my guess is that the 'simplified' writing will prevail in the long run. When I relearnt my Romanian a couple of years ago this bothered me a great deal, but now it hardly affects my reading speed. And if it is like that for me then the most likely outcome will be that the Romanians will follow the line of least resistence and kill off their special letters.

I'm looking forward to trying to write on the computers down there, but if the writings on the internet are indicative of the situation in Romania then most computers in Romania aren't equipped with Romanian keyboards, and then I may also have to 'cheat'.



Edited by Iversen on 24 July 2009 at 5:13pm

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Iversen
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 Message 1149 of 3959
25 July 2009 at 12:34pm | IP Logged 
LAT: Avete membra fori! Heri vesperi adumbrationem scripsi istius adiumenti, et quoniam omnia non scio necesse mihi est vocabularium uti, exempli cause "Neues Latein Lexicon" alias "Lexicon recentis latinitatis". Tamen non semper consento cum autoribus istius, quia rebus nostris temporis saepe circumlocutiones utunt pro termine simplice. "Computer" in "instrumentum computatorum" vertent, sed ego non credo Ciceronem circumlocutionem talem uti se instrumentum haberet. Ut vostrem in loco Ciceronis ponatis: quid credete big C diceret - "instrumentum computatorum" aut "computator"? Ego aestimo "computator", etiamsi non in Latine classico vel medievale attestatum sit.

Alterum exemplum: "terminus". Abest de vocabulariis meis vocabulum praeter cum significatio "fine", sed in omnis linguis recentibus terminus cum derivatibus suis existit, et in vocabulariis etimologicis expliciter designatum est quam vocabulum latinum. Ergo in Neolatinum quam elementum naturale et optabile considerandum est.

Tertium exemplum: "Lexicon". Terminus graecum et in linguis recentibus quam liber breves explicationes rei mundi continens, et non quam index vocabulorum cum translatibus aut non. Ergo melius est alterum vocabulum graecum "thesaurus" ('aerium') aut "vocabularium", etiamsi vocabularia sine chartae tamen in capitis nostris omnis habimus. Ego prefero "vocabularium" vel "dictionarium", quod in aetate media attestatum est (etiamsi in dictionarii mei numquam mentio eo fit).

Bone, cur heri latine sermone incepi scribere? Quia auditionem in lingva anglice ex anno 1886 legi, de W.G.Hale facta et nomine "Ars Latine legendi - quomodo doceret?" (The Art of Reading Latin: How to Teach It). Affermat studentes suis temporis post annos nultos studiae non latine sermone fluentar ac volubiliter legere vel (nihilominus) loquari posse, et causam in rationis docendi videt. Regula fuit "Primo verbum reperre et in linguam maternalem vertere, deinde subjectum, deinde partes sententiae ad verbo adjunctes, partes adjunctes ad subjecto, et cetera et cetera. Id est, studenti compositum sentitem redigens significationem suam construere debebant. Hale contra dixit: cives romanus quomodo sententias intellegebat? Num inquisitionem rei per partes perfecit? Haud fecit, contra primum vocabulum audivi et sibi opinationem fecit significationis. Secundum vocabulum ceteras rationes permittebat, alteras prohibebat et rationes novas proponebat. Ad fine - vel termine - sententiae totam significatiam aperte perspicebat romanus. Non est quod questiones grammaticae de isto absunt, sed in deliberationibus mentis structura omnis elementarum sententiae se gradatim solvens abdat.

Nunc questionem hebimus: praeclarus (mono)glottologista Noam Chomsky dicitur esse argumenta afferre ut grammaticam lineariam non satis esse sententias lingvae describere aut construere? Ergo grammatica transformationalem proposuit dicens istud fortior sit. Sed nunquam theoria Chomskiana lingvis discendis sibi apta demonstrata est (et Chomsky numquam alteram lingvam post introductionem grammaticae sua discebat). Facte ad situatio ante Hale revertus est.

Forsitan necesse est grammaticam audiendam/legendam et grammaticam cogitandam/loquendam/scribendam habere? Non credo. Vitium grammaticae chomskianae est de tabula rasa structuram abstractam aedificare et deinde vocabula adjungere. Sed vocabula concreta cum suibus peculiaritatibus lingvam constituunt.Se audimus sententiam cum primo vocabulo incipimus, quandoquidem se loquimur cum aliqua notione magni momenti sed in linguis nostris rapide verbum sententiae eligere debimus quoniam structura sententia de proprietatibus verbis valde dependant. Quam ob rem omnia grammatica qui primo sceletum aedificat et postea vocabularium adjicet arti lingvas docendi aliena est.

---------

This long long rant is divided into two parts. The first discusses the choice of words for contemporary phenomena in Neolatin. Those people that only see Latin as a dead language don't need and don't want new additions to the Latin vocabulary, but their way of thinking has spilled over in the attitude of even those that purposely try to keep Latin alive by proposing expressions for things from our time. Let's imagine that a timetraveller put a PC on the table of Cicero. Would he call it an "instrumentum computatorum"? Probably not, - if the battery still had some time left he would soon have shortened it, probably to "computator". So that's what I think it should be called in modern Latin. Another example: most modern language use the term "term" (as in "terminology"), and the etymological dictionaries trace it back to Latin "terminus". However according to my dictionaries this word is only attested with the meaning "end" og "limit". Snould that stop me from adopting the modern meaning of all its descendant? No. Third and last example. My Lempertz dictionary of New Latin calls itself "lexicon". Is that a good idea? No, because a lexicon in most modern languages is a book with short articles about this and sundry. I prefer the word "vocabularium", even if it also used about the wordlists we all have built into out brains.

The second part refers to a lecture made in 1886 (!) by W.G.Hale, professor in Antique language at Cornell University, and its title is "The Art of reading Latin: How to Teach it". Hale have observed that the students of his day spent eyars studying Latin (and Greek) without getting even near a normal reading speed (not to speak of their speading abilities) ... somehow I think I have heard that lament before. Hale found the reason for this calamity in the way Latin was taught: his collegues wanted their pupils to analyse each sentence as a whole, putting things into some kind of big structure where everything had its allotted place. But a Roman citizen didn't have the time to erect such a structure when somebody spoke to hime. He had to start with the first word. It opened up for some possible developments of the rest of the discussion and excluded others. The second word would then narrow the field by weeding out some possiblities and adding others. Mr. Roman would (normally) not try to guess the whole sentence after the first word, but it nevertheless gave him some hints as to what might follow. At the end of the sentence he would have arrived at a conclusion concerning the general meaning of the sentence.

Arrives Chomsky, who kicks out any kind of 'linear' grammar based on the assumption that sentences are constructed from the beginning to the end. He disregard 'constitutent structure' grammars based on the properties on different kinds of words and proposes instead his own 'transformation grammar'. I have nothing against the notion of transformation, on the contrary, but the general aspect of the theory is that you first build an abstract structure and then you attach some words to it. The structure isn't dictated by the interplay of the words, but the words have to behave within the boundaries of the structure.

With this theory Chomsky has in a sense reverted to a theoretical position from before Hale, though with a much more stringent notational formalism (which is why many theoretical linguists have felt attracted to it).

The problem is that this model has preciously little to do with the way people construct and understand their sentences. If you speak the case is not toally clearcut, but you probably first decide on some words that refer to something you want to say, then you have to choose a verb and things like that, and then the possibilities in those words dictate how you can construct the rest of your sentence. When you listen the situation is different: you have to start at the beginning and build your picture of the sentence and its meaning while listening. And to do that you have to deal with single words and expressions before you have the whole syntactical building ready. And because it is so there hasn't been any noteworthy effects on language teaching nor anything else outside academic linguistics (it probably isn't an accident that Chomsky himself never learned any other language from the moment he invented transformational grammar).


Edited by Iversen on 25 July 2009 at 2:12pm

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 Message 1150 of 3959
25 July 2009 at 11:12pm | IP Logged 
That's interesting what you write about modern Latin, but I had to read it in the English translation, I have to confess.

Sadly, I have forgotten everything I learned at university about the famous linguists like Chomsky and De Saussure and others and their theories. After I quit my studies of Romance Philology I couldn't bother with linguistics anymore, because I changed my professional orientation and I had to aquire a lot of other professional knowledge. My personal orientation goes now in the dircetion of learning languages in combination with reading about natural sciences. In my opinion this is a very interesting combination because language learning and natural sciences are (even without using maths!!!) intellectually so completely different. And it's such an uncommon combination of interests that it gives me personal satisfaction. So I can live without having scientific knowledge about linguistics anymore.

Fasulye

Edited by Fasulye on 25 July 2009 at 11:12pm

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Iversen
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 Message 1151 of 3959
26 July 2009 at 2:39pm | IP Logged 
Modern linguistics has developed in a direction that has little to do with its pedagogical applications, - and in spite of some interesting results in neurophysiology, neiter it nor pedagogics have been able to fill the void. Everything that happens in the teaching of languages nowadays is the product of internetbased 'amateurs' like Kaufmann. Even machine based translation has given up using the outpout from linguistics, but has instead resorted to quantitatively based 'rambo' methods.

In my opinion the Chomskyan revolution is the worst thing that has happened to linguistics EVER! It has totally eliminated the pedagogical perspective in linguiatics and reduced it to some kind of Medieval scholastics for a few learned people in their ivory towers.


Edited by Iversen on 26 July 2009 at 4:52pm

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Iversen
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 Message 1152 of 3959
27 July 2009 at 1:47pm | IP Logged 
Nel log di Lizzern ho trovato un link interessante che apparamente ha ricevuto da Staf250: Personalità confusa. Splinder è un sitio di blog Italiani, creato in nel anno 2001. E è una fonte inesauribile di divertimenti scritti nell'italiano informale di oggi. C'è anche un vitadiblogger.splinder.com in modo che potete leggere qualcosa sulle motivazioni dei consumatori. Non ho conosciuto in anticipio la persona confusa indicata da Staf, ma non è facile trovare qualcosa su un sito web che presumibilmente contiene 420.000 blog aperti(fonte: Wikipedia).

Siedo in questo momento al mio posto di lavoro in cui ho due computer. Dal questa mattina quello a destra è stato monopolizzato quasi interamente dal personaggio confusa, nel cui blog ho penetrato in questo momento agli archivi dell'anno scorso (che, tra le altre cose, contiene un intervista con il mese di dicembre (!), che è stufo di essere esclusivamente associato al Natale).

Da qualche parte lungo la strada, ho attraversato il riferimento alla scoperta d'America da parte dei vichinghi, menzionato anche da Lizzern e secondo il quale abbiano seguito il viaggio fino alle isole Caraibe, dove hanno trascorso i prossimi 500 anni alla spiagga a guardare le donne e bere capirinha. Ho letto in un libro che se ha trovato una strana tavola con una inscrizione runica a Kensington, Minnesota, secondo la quale un gruppo di svedesi abbiano penetrato fino a Minnesota in 1355, - ma gli scienziati sono più che scettici, perché la lingua della pietra è un mosaico di termini provenienti da varie epoche.

D'altro canto, vi si trovano tracce dei vichinghi a L'anse aux Meadows in Newfoundland, e queste sono considerate autentiche. Il luogo si trova infatti incluso nella lista UNESCO dei luoghi di interesse universale per l'umanità.

Finalmente ci sono numerosi riferimenti alla scoperta di America ("Vinland") nelle saghe islandesi, e dato che queste sono stati scritte prima dell'arrivo di Colombo è di per sé una prova sufficiente della visita di Leif Eirikssonur (detto 'il Felice'] a Nord America cerca l'anno 1000. Una lista in Danese si trova qui, una pagina Wikipedia in Inglese qui ed un'altra in Italiano qui. Finalmente si può leggere la storia originale della discoperta di America secondo la Saga dei Groenlandesi qui, ed io intendo farlo ancora oggi.

--------

I have of course follow the link provided by Lizzern (who got it herself from Staf250) to the blog of an anonymous Italian named "Personalitàconfusa", - and the person is even more confusing after a quick perousal of the 11 (!) "who am I"'s in the archives ('the confused cast of this blog').It is just one of the many blogs at Splinder.com, an Italian blog-site with a stupendous number of contributors past and present.

And of course I have thoroughly enjoyed reading the hypothetical story of what might have happened if the vikings hadn't forgotten to tell the world that they had discovered America. Well that's not quite true, but they wrote the announcement in Old Norse which didn't help matters much marketingwise.

There are in fact a few stones with runic inscriptions from North America, but none of these are considered as genuine by the scientists. The latest of these allegedly dates from 1355, where the Swedish king sent some people out to investigate the rumours of a land far west - they never returned. Then there are some meagre finds from Anse du Meadows in Newfoundland, which are seen as genuine. But first and foremost there are the original sagas that tell about no less than 6 expeditions from Greenland to some place called Wineland. I have found the most complete of these texts at the Runeberg site, and I'm going to read it in the bus back home from work. Maybe you will hear more about this topic later.
   
But fundamentally the outcome of the expeditions was zero, zilch, nothing. The man who first sighted Newfoundland (Bjarki) didn't like the place so he didn't land - he was of course taunted for that, but look at the guy's situation: he had come to Iceland with a ship to visit his father, and then the neighbours told him that pop had moved to Greenland somewhere out West. But Bjarki didn't know exactly where this so called Greenland was, and when he - after weeks of miserable sailing around in bad weather - spotted a boring flat coast without houses or fields he concluded that this wasn't de old man's abode, so he continued the search and eventually found the settlement. Frankly I don't think that he can be blamed for that.

The first viking who actually landed was Leif Eirikssonur from the (then) thriving Nordic colony on Greenland, and after that members of his familie visited the place at least 5 times more. But they didn't like the local inhabitants, and the inhabitants certainly didn't like the intruders, so the expeditions ended with the one led by Leif's sister Freydis, which (maybe) ended up with a massacre. And when the so called 'Small Ice Age' came around 1500-1600 the Nordic colonies on Greenland died out, - not least because their economy was based primarily on cattle, and the last vikings were apparently too stubborn to take to fishing and hunting, which conceivably could have saved them.

Maybe they should have continued South after all and had 500 nice and pleasant years on a Caribian beach with samba girls and exotic drinks, as suggested by the confused personality. Though they might not have liked the Carib tribes that conquered and ate the peaceful Arawak tribes that originally inhabited the islands. And without guns and cannons they would have had a problem with Columbus and the hordes of firearms toting bloody murderers that came in his wake.


Edited by Iversen on 27 July 2009 at 8:20pm



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