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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 3769 of 3959
10 December 2014 at 11:39pm | IP Logged 
IT: Grazie per le correzioni. Attenzione: più Italiano guasto avanti!

Qualche settimane fa ho scorso velocemente il libro "Lingua e Storia dei Goti" di P.Scardigli (1964). Ieri dovetti assistere a una riunione a Viborg in funzione dal mio lavoro, e perciò ho trascorso un totale di 2 ½ ore nel treno- Approfittai dell'occasione per rileggere i primi capitoli del libro - ma questa volta come lettura intensiva con appunti.

Come sapete, effettivamente esiste solamente una fonte sostanziale del gotico, e cioè la traduzione incompleta della Bibbia fatta dal vescovo Vulfila (o piuttosto "Wulfila") nel 3° secolo dopo cristo, rendendo il gotico la lingua Germanica la più vecchia che sia ampiamente documentata. Il concorrente, il pre-norreno (o 'urnordisk'' in danese), è rappresentato solo da qualche breve iscrizioni runiche. Ma il libro di Wulfila fornisce unicamente un assaggio di un solo tipo di gotico da un periodo specifico - ed è lecito supporre che l'influenza greca sulla lingua della Bibbia è più forte di quanto non fosse in nella lingua comunemente parlata dai goti. Sfortunamente le poche parole che conosciamo da per esempio la lingua dei Lombardi o Visigoti non bastano per illuminare il grado di somiglianza tra il loro linguaggio e quello di Wulfila. E un strano fatto che i Goti non hanno cercato di imporro la sua lingua sulle popolazioni delle aree che hanno conquistate, e che hanno lasciato quasi niente in forma scritta per la posterità.

Sulla pagina 117 nel suo libro il signor Scardigli discute il modo in cui gli scolari degli scuoli ellenistiche hanno imparato le loro lingue straniere durante la vita di Wulfila, e sembra essere stato un esercizio assai noioso: " Allora come oggi si imparava innanzi tutto l'alfabeto. (...) Subito dopo lo scolaro cominciava a sillabare, arrivando progressivamente a combinazioni piè completti di lettere. Quindi comminciava a scrivere le parole, prima monosillabili, poi, sempre più spigliato, polisillabi. Sono previsti più di quattro anni per giungere a scrivere (...) Finite le elementari , chi voleva e poteva continuare passava dal γραμματιστής al γραμματικόςl, dal maestro al professore.".. Qui l'autore gentilmente fornisce una traduzione, ma normalmente le citazioni greche o latine non sono tradotte in questo libro - evidentemente aspetta che i suoi lettori possano leggere le lingue classiche.

Per quiunque desideri apprendere il gotico: esistano diverse versioni della Bibbia di Wulfila sul Internet, ma la migliore è sin dubbio la versione completa trilingue di /www.wulfila.be, che offre anche spiegazioni al clic ed una morfologia gotica. Si può ascoltare un poco di Luca sul Youtube, ed il professore Arguelles ha evidentemente anche fatto un video sul gotico nella sua serie Germanica.

EN: it would be strange to leave the Gothic language without quoting at least one line from the Bible in the trilingual version mentioned above - I seriously wonder whether "bowel" is the right word for "brusts" .. but who am I to doubt the acribic accuracy of the translation? At least "σπλάγχνα" seems to mean entrails. What on earth did mister Philemon think of when he chose that word?

Philemon 1:20
    A jai, broþar, ik þeina niutau in fraujin; anaþrafstei meinos brusts in Xristau.
    — ναί, ἀδελφέ, ἐγώ σου ὀναίμην ἐν κυρίῳ: ἀνάπαυσόν μου τὰ σπλάγχνα ἐν χριστῷ.
    — Yea, brother, let me have joy of thee in the Lord: refresh my bowels in the Lord.


Edited by Iversen on 19 December 2014 at 11:03am

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Iversen
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 Message 3770 of 3959
12 December 2014 at 11:43pm | IP Logged 
EN: In Danish history the period under Valdemar 1, Canute 6 and Valdemar 2 (until the latter was kidnapped by the count of Schwerin and lost most of his conquests) is seen as one of the high points, and one of the most important events during this time was the war against the Wends, a Slavic tribe that lived along the German coast to the South of Denmark - and who had developed the nasty habit of raiding the Danish islands facing their territory. In Gesta Danorum by Saxo Grammaticus this war takes up much of the last part, and especially the siege and conquest of the main Wendish town Arkona - where they destroyed the fourheaded statue of the heathen god Svantevit - is obviously seen as a heroic deed performed by king Valdemar 1 and his trusty (and quite bellicose) right hand Bishop Absalon. However at other times the Wends and the Danes seemed almost to be allies against the Germanic Saxons.

Last evening I studied and copied a section about language ecology from Spivak's book "Kak statj poliglotom", and suddenly I hid upon some references to a tribe and and a language called Polabian (Пола́бский), who turned out to be our good old friends and foes, the Wends:

RU: После поражения от датчан, они были подавлены саксами,и если их земли не были так заболочена, как, что саксы не решался поселиться там, культура и язык вендов исчезли бы гораздо раньше. Язык выжил однако пятьсот лет больше - едва ли. Спивак рассказывает о самоучки крестьянина, Ян Шульц, который решил сохранить некоторые из его родного языка, и кто написал (на немецком* языке): "Когда я и еже три человека в нашем селе умрут, вероятно, уже никто не будет знать, как по-вендски называлась собака". И благодаря одному крестьянина и групу небольшой неполабских лингвистов у нас сегодня несколько списков слов, в этом вымерший язык.

GER: *Wenn mit mir und denn noch drey Personen es vorbey ist in unserem Dorf, alsdann wird wohl niemand recht wissen, wie ein Hund auf Wendisch genannt wirdt

EN: In the big, fat and scholarly "The Slavonic languages" (ed. Comrie & Corbett) Kazimierz Polański has written the article about Polabian, and one of his first observations is that the true Polabians probably were an entirely different tribe, and that the Wends ("vender" in Danish") probably were the tribe originally known as 'Drewani'. But the name Polabian has now become the regular name, and given that the other Slavonic languages from the area have left pathetically few traces the risk of confusion is limited. One other Slavonic language (or rather language group) inside the current frontiers of Germany has survived: Sorbian (or 'Serbski'). And it is interesting by having retained the dualis from Proto-Slavonic. Only one other modern Slavonic language has kept it too, namely Slovenian - but it is assumed that Polabian also had a dualis.

Let's return to the battle of Arkona.

RU: Спивак также говорит, что датчане венедов изменили, когда эта огромная сила прибыл. Но нет, у нас есть подробное описание событий в Саксо, и, хотя он не беспристрастным свидетелем, он четко объясняет, как город был захвачен датчанами:

LAT: "Rex [Valdemar 1] (...) fundendi sanguinis auiditate perductis urbem Arkon obsidione tentavit". Nota bene: in obsidione proelioque pomerani sub Kazimaro ac Bugaszlawo etiam participarunt - tamensi Bugiszlaw postea regi danorum deservit et Norwagiensibus junxit. 'Kazimar' et 'Bugaszlaw' clare etiam slavonici erant.

Supra dici Arkonam simulacrum ligneam habere. Saxo singulatim non modo simulacrum, sed etiam templum caerimonasque Arkoni descripsi: "Medium urbis planicias habebat, in qua ide simulacrum materia ligneam, opere elegantissimum uisebatur (...) Ingens in simulacrum omnem humani ceruicibus mirandum pestabat (...)". Post haec describit Saxo caeromonias in templo, et hic ut verus ethnographus aget.

DA: I den danske historieskrivning er det naturligvis Valdemarernes heltegerninger der betones - og ikke mindst biskop Absalon's rolle fremhæves. Det er imidlertid vanskeligt ikke at synes at det er en lille smule synd for venderne at de sådan kom i klemme mellem saksere og danskere. Men det der med deres sørøveri og hærgen ved de danske kyster kom altså til at koste dem dyrt.

I øvrigt indgik frasen "de venders og goters konge" i de danske kongers titel indtil 1972, da Frederik 9. døde - Margrethe synes nok at det lød lidt åndssvagt at påberåbe sig landområder, der havde været tabt i århundreder. De svenske (!) konger fortsatte at påberåbe sig vendernes land et år længere - indtil 1973.

EN: Right now I'm watching TV in English - a program about the rediscovery of Richard III's bones which I have seen once before, but for once don't mind watching again. They found his skeleton - with scoliosis and all - under a parking lot near an old monastery, and the identity of the guy seems to be fairly well documented. His remains even passed a DNA test. Maybe the powers that be should start clearing a space in Westminster Abbey for this 'lost' king, who was vilified without mercy by the Tudors (and Shakespeare) for obvious dynastic reasons.   


Edited by Iversen on 13 December 2014 at 1:02am

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Iversen
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 Message 3771 of 3959
14 December 2014 at 9:48pm | IP Logged 
Earlier today I (re)watched a documentary about the murder of Ramesses III, and for some reason I looked him up in Wikipedia. I was puzzled by the claim that he was the second king in the 20. dynasty, but the two first Ramesses'es and a couple of Seti's belong to de preceding 19. dynasty. So what separated the two. Well, it turned out that there were some rather unusual circumstances around the change of dynasty, including a two-year reign of a lady named Twosret. Her rule ended in a civil war, which was won by Setnakht, who allegedly saw Seti II as the last legitimate ruler. Maybe that's why Merenptah and - even more- Amenmesse, Siptah and Twosret have been left in the dark. Merenptah's own claim the the throne was even more dodgy, but his son was called Ramesses (III) - as if nothing had happened and the previous dynasty just went on through his own humble self.

Do I learn languages when I'm studying Egyptian history? Nope, not really, because the sources I have used were all in English and I can't even read hieroglyphs. But even earlier I did at least watch TV in i couple of other languages like Spanish, French, Croatian, Serbian and Swedish - but after that I was gobbled up by the Anglophone documentary vortex from which I still haven't emerged. Right now I'm learning about the ways this planet may be destroyed in English. But that hopefully won't happen for a few years from now so let's instead go far back in time to the Spanish TV block, where I started out with a visit to fungus country around 10 o'clock.

SP: Al principio vi 'El Escarabajo Verde', donde visitaron un Parco de Micologia (o ruta micologica) cerca de Lérida. El programa estaba en Español, però Lérida es por supuesto una ciudad catalana, de modo que debe ser lícito hacer recapitularlo en (CAT:) Català. És possiblement una bona idea per a un principiant passejar al bosc i recollir una cistella de bolets, que després es menja a casa? No, i per tant es organitza excursions esponges amb guides experimentats, i hi ha clubs de bolets en el quals sembla que es pot dejar membres més entesos dividir els bolets en comestibles i més o menys tòxics. Jo preferix comprar els meus fongs en supermercats.

SP: Despues he visto un emision sobre el gran pintor El greco (Δομήνικος Θεοτοκόπουλος, 1541 – 1614). GR: Γεννήθηκε στην Κρήτη, αλλά έφυγε από το νησί για να αναζητήσετε την τύχη του στην Ιταλία, και από εκεί πήγε στην Ισπανία, όπου εγκαταστάθηκε στο Τολέδο το 1577. SP: Pasó el resto de su vida en Toledo, pintando pinturas religiosos llenos de cuerpos largos y delgados - y sin duda muchos de sus contemporáneos pensaban que era loco, pero hoy se considera el más grande pintor absoluto de su tiempo. Y fue ciertamente un logro considerable para un trabajador extranjero de una isla griega ortodoxa bajo la dominación turca no enredar con la santa Inquisición, que persiguieron a los Judios y musulmanes españoles, incluso después de su conversión forzada, de manera que algunos de ellos tuvieron que huir a Grecia. He visitado Toledo una vez (en 1991), però cada vez que pienso en esta ciudad yo vé su imagen como pintado de El Greco.

He visto aún un programa más en español, y en esto me esplicaban como hacer hojaldre de lombarda y otras cosas estrañas del mundo culinario.

FR: Après cela, je ai vu les nouvelles de la Belgique sur TV 5, et il est clair que le monde est sorti de ses gonds. Il y a eu de la neige en Belgique et maintenant il aura aussi une grève générale là. En Haïti, ce est le chaos, et en Turquie un certain nombre de journalistes ont été arrêtés ... et après toutes ces autres calamités il y avait une section sur les sports! Je ne pus supporter ces horreurs et me suis refugié en Croatie, où..

SER: ... успео сам да видим крај телевизијског програма о мору из Ријеке. Али завршио и тако сам прешао на дневник из Србије, где најдраматичнији став је био прва посета кинеског премијера Београду после скоро 30 година.

EN: Apart from that, OK, well, I may be slightly paranoid, but something strange is happening to this thread. About two weeks ago it passed the 3.000.000 visitors mark, which already was somewhat surprising to me back then. But in the two weeks since Dec. 1 it has accumulated close to an additional 200.000 visitors - and I'm starting to wonder where all those visitors come from. I'm writing about the same things as I have done since the thread was started in November 2008, and it has been growing slowly, but consistently for a very long time. So why this sudden explosion? I don't get it...

PS: On TV right now there is a program about supermassive black holes. In English.

PSPS: ... and now they discuss processes that could add more cells to out brains and ways to hotwire them with nanowires so that you can get input directly from gadgets that in principle could be placed on the other side of the Moon. This may sound scary, but I think the news from Belgium were just as bad.

Edited by Iversen on 15 December 2014 at 2:28am

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tarvos
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 Message 3772 of 3959
14 December 2014 at 10:04pm | IP Logged 
Quote:
But in the two weeks since Dec. 1 it has accumulated close to an additional
200.000 visitors - and I'm starting to wonder where all those visitors come from. I'm
writing about the same things as I have done since the thread was started in November
2008, and it has been growing slowly, but consistently for a very long time. So why this
sudden explosion? I don't get it...


We have all recognized that the madness of this log is actually the forum's secret source
of wisdom! :D


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Iversen
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 Message 3773 of 3959
14 December 2014 at 10:10pm | IP Logged 
:)
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 Message 3774 of 3959
14 December 2014 at 10:11pm | IP Logged 
SP: Me gusta la pintura de El Greco. Ví unos cuantos de sus cuadros el año pasado en el museo del Louvre. Tiene un estilo muy distinto.

FR: Ben oui il faut forcément un petit reportage du sport après avoir montré l'agitation et l'insécurité qui tabassent la planète...on doit se détendre un peu, non ? :-)

Edited by tastyonions on 14 December 2014 at 10:13pm

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Iversen
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 Message 3775 of 3959
16 December 2014 at 9:28pm | IP Logged 
Today I went (once again) to Viborg by train, slightly more than one hour each way, and before leaving I bought a Russian newspaper at the railway station: "Комсомолская Правда". Komsomol is/was the Soviet youth organization, and until I saw this newspaper I thought it had been abolished - but apparently not. Though what exactly the relation is between this weekly newspaper for the international market and the old Komsomol is not clear to me.

Inside the publication I read a comment on a recent resolution from the House of Representatives in the USA, something about a million rubles for the Opera and Ballet house of Donetsk (presented by renowned diva Netrebko), a meeting between Putin and F.Hollande and something about the crashed Malaysian airplane and many other things - but I read slowly in Russian, and I only carried along a microskopic dictionary and there were things I simply didn't understand. And I still have a lot of pages left, but now I have decent dictionaries within reach.     

RU: На самом деле я думал, что комсомол был отменен, но нет. Однако эта газета не ежедневная газета и он будет опубликован на международный рынок, а не для русских. Я заплатил около 2½ € за него, и это разумная цена за то, что мне нужно много часов, чтобы читать - я медленно читал на русском языке. Дома у меня до сих пор изучают короткие отрывки из Спивак.

SE: У српском ја студирам палеонтолошку текстове - данас страница о камбријума и трилобита. То је двојезична штампање, али ја не буде превише лако: превод је на африкаансом.

Edited by Iversen on 16 December 2014 at 10:13pm

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 Message 3776 of 3959
18 December 2014 at 10:26pm | IP Logged 
OC: Encuei en lou autobus-per-a-casa ieu legière la petito gramatica prouvençal de www.nouvello.com e dous tèxtes brèus, un dels quals fazià referéncia a la cantairis Rosa Bardas, lou altre a l'escrivan Pèire Magnan. Ieu pode legir lou provençal modèrn amb un pouc trabalh (l'ortografia tradicionalo mai be d'aquel de Mistral), mas sei fòrça malaisit aprene un idiòma sense aver un diccionari de qualque autra lenga en l'idiòma de destin. Ieu teni un diccionari occitan-francés, mas en aquel se trata del vièlh occitan (E.Levy, 1909) - un libre comprat de segonda man. La miá gramatica occitana portant s'ocupa de la lenga moderna - mas de quin dialecte? Lou provençal, vivaroalpenc, auvernhat, lengadocian o gascon? Ieu sabes pas. Urosament, i a qualques bones recorses dins l'internet, coma lo diccionari de "Lo Congrès" i altres.

OC: Il peut paraître un peu hypocrite d'échapper aux problèmes liès à un essai d'écrire dans une langue qu'on a seulement apprise comme langue passive en ressortissant à la langue qui l'a tuée, mais telle est la situation: l'occitan était une langue florissante au moyen-âge, mais après une série de croisades sanglantes, menées par l'église et les rois de la France du Nord contre les cultures du sud, suivies par de nombreuses années d'une politique linguistique centralisante, l'occitan mène aujourd'hui une existance dans l'ombre, divisé en plusieurs dialectes et sans aucun appui de l'état. Donc il serait difficile (et probablement futil) de l'apprendre comme langue active, mais j'ai eu la chance de pouvoir suivre un cours d'ancien occitan passif pendant mes années d'études, et je peux toujours lire les poèmes des troubadours sans trop des problèmes. Et bien que l'orthographe inventé par M. Mistral me pose quelques problèmes je peux aussi lire des textes plus récents. Comme par example ceux de nouvello.com que j'ai lu dans l'autobus-au-retour-de-mon-travail aujourd'hui.

D'ailleurs je suppose que vous savez pourquoi les linguististes ont donné le nome "occitan" à la langue (dont le provençal est le dialecte le plus connu)? Eh bien, apparemment c'est le grand Dante Alighieri lui-même qui a divisé les languages romanes de son époque en trois groupes selon leur mot pour "oui": les langues de "si" (<sic Latin), les languages de "oc" (<hoc) et les languages de "oil" (<hoc ille), qui est devenu le "oui" du français moderne. Et la langue d'oc est devenu 'Occitan' dans l'argot des savants.

Edited by Iversen on 19 December 2014 at 11:05am



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