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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 2977 of 3959
18 July 2012 at 4:16pm | IP Logged 
Speaking about wordlists...

I have done a lecture in Esperanto about them and survived - although it developed into something more like a workshop. The lecture was scheduled for a minor room ('eta salono') and mentioned in the program for the event. But nobody had put up any directions to that room so nobody knew where it was, and to get there you had to open an anonymous door, walk up a stair, walk to the end of a nondescript corridor and open one more closed door (though we left it open). So when I should start there was just one elderly couple present, and then a few more came into the room slightly later. Midway through the one hour session a couple of persons had to leave to attend another meeting in the magnificent big auditory with direct access from the hall, but instead I got several new listeners - but never more at one time than could be placed around a long table, so I just spread out some of my own lists on the table and explained away using large sheets of papers and felt pens - with several recapitulations along the way when new people turned up.

Quite surrealistic, and I had to forget all about following my original plan, but it was entertaining and I got several positive comments about the method (or rather methods, because I also told about text copying and other techniques).

It was also quite demanding because I had to improvise along the way. For instance I found myself explaining what flash cards are and how you use them. And being forced to speak also meant that I got a lot of speech training afterwards with other participants. For example I met the leader of the Danish Esperantists, who told me that the other Danes present had been somewhat puzzled about seeing the name of a totally unknown compatriot in the program.

Maybe I can weed out some pronunciation and grammatical errors in the coming days, and then I might claim to be at the lowest end of basic fluency of one more language. At least I can speak fluently now, but not in impeccable Esperanto, and I can understand just about everything I hear.

My Irish studies have also got a boost. I found an English version of the Irish grammar book I bought Saturday, and I have bought a number of other books, including H.Potter no. 1 - the one about the philosopher's stone. Which actually cleared up another moot point. Rawlinson use the word 'orcrist' in the later books, but now I have seen that the name of the philosophers's stone in Irish - the book is called "Harry Potter agus An Orchloch" in Irish.

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Iversen
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 Message 2978 of 3959
18 July 2012 at 4:28pm | IP Logged 
prz_ wrote:
I have several question concerning the word lists method. I've started using it (in fact - way too late), but I would like to know some things:
- what your intervals between each repetition, both in the first three columns and the latter two?
- what do you do when you forget one word from the list during one of the repetitions? You simply shortly revise these words and write the last one you've forgotten or rewrite everything? How long do you wait then?
- after these 5 (4) repetitions, do you come back to these words or not? I know you have an enormous experience with learning languages, so maybe you don't need it
.


1) One day is a good interval - you still remember your original 'memory hooks', and you have got a good night's sleep. But it is not a requirement. Btw. If you have studied and maybe even copied a text and written down all unknown words, then you can reread that text and make sure that you now know each and every word - this is an alternative way of making the repetition if you are short on time. Then just relearn the words which you didn't remember.

While writing in any of the columns: if you have forgotten a word then you can have a look to see the 'solution', but just don't write it down right away - combine it with the next group of words. The rule is never to write things down at once - you have a bigger chance of remember them on a permanent basis if you have succeded in recovering them after a short pause.

Edited by Iversen on 20 July 2012 at 4:00pm

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Iversen
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 Message 2979 of 3959
20 July 2012 at 4:48pm | IP Logged 
ESP: La esperanto kongreso finiĝis kun memorandum, kiu alvokis al la Eŭropa Unio labori pli por multilingeco kaj specie apogi konkretan testprogramon "Springboard to Languages". La ideo estas ke - dankon al la fama esperanta lernebleco - infanoj povas lerni la duan lingvon (exemple la angla) plej bone en kvar jarojn, se oni instruigas ilin unue unu jaron en Esperanto kaj poste tri jarojn en la alia lingvo, ol se oni instruas ilin kvar jarojn nur en la cela lingvo. Eblas, jes, kaj la rezultatoj kiujn oni povis prezenti dum la kongreso ŝajne montrigis ke la ideo povus funkĉi, se ĝi estis efektiĝis. La nura problemo ... ci tio ago ne okazos - la disvastigo de la angla jam iris tro fore por esti blokita, kaj neniuj gepatroj ekster la movado esperanta permesos, ke la komenco de la angla kursoj en la lernejo de lia kara monstreto estos prokrastita por permesi unu jaro de esperanto. Neniam. La infero superglaciiĝos, antaŭ ke tiu afaro okazus.

Aliflanke la kongreso ankaŭ prezentis la alternativon: la interreto. Laŭ mi eksistas du grupoj de potencialaj esperantistoj: infanoj de esperantistoj kaj plenaĝiĝuloj kiuj vidis ke existas materialoj kaj lerniloj kaj komunomoj. La unua grupo estas en la sama situacio kiel infanoj el grupoj plimultilingvaj (kiel la parolantoj de la gaela lingvo in Ireland), la alia grupo estas grupo de plenaĝiĝoj kiun oni devas konvinku kun ofertoj senpagaj kiel Lernu kaj Vikipedio - kaj poste eble ili decidos lerni la lingvon. Fakte ja aperis reprezentantoj de ambaŭ retejoj dum la konferenco, sed en la sama "ĉambro de sekretoj" kiel mi priskribis supre (18/7) (ĉambro malantaŭ tri fermitaj pordoj kaj unu kruta ŝtuparo).

Malgraŭ tiu malekvilibro, estis plezuro ĉeesti en la kongreso. Mi renkontis multajn interesajn gehomojn - ĉiu esperantisto estas verŝajne multilingua, kaj iuj el ili estas netaj poliglotoj (ekzemple profesoro Seán Ó Riain, kiu ankaŭ prezentis la gaelan lingvon de Irlando en du kursetoj de 'Irlanda eksprese'. Mi ankaŭ renkontis la 'madrina' de la dana esperantista movado, Iliana Schrøder, kiu estis tre perpleksita kiam ŝi vidis en la programo la nomon de dana esperantisto, kiun ŝi ne sciis - normale ŝi scias ĉiujn kaj ĉion en la campo esperanta en Danujo.

Kaj kion pli oni devas diri? Mi estis tre impresita kun la rapideco kaj praveco de la parolado en esperanto de la plejmultaj partoprenantoj - ili ŝajnis estis parolintaj la lingvon ilia tuta vivo. Mi estis definitive en la malsupra segmento tie, sed en konsidero de la fakto ke mi preskaŭ ne povis diri ion ajn antaŭ unu jaron kaj ke mi ne havis unu solan konversacion en esperanto antaŭ ci tiu evento, mi ne povis atendi plu. Mi vidas kiel veran kaj sufiĉan progreson ke mi nun povas paroli tiel rapide, ke mi ne havas tempon por nek antaŭdiri kaj nek eviti mia erarojn.

Edited by Iversen on 23 July 2012 at 11:43am

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Fasulye
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 Message 2980 of 3959
20 July 2012 at 7:08pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
Malgraŭ tiu malekvilibro, estis plezuro ĉeesti en la kongreso. Mi renkontis multajn interesajn gehomojn - ĉiu esperantisto estas probable multilingua, kaj iuj el ili estas netaj poliglotoj (ekzemple profesoro Seán Ó Riain, kiu ankaŭ prezentis la gaelan lingvon de Irlando en du kursetoj de 'Irlanda eksprese'. Mi ankaŭ renkontis la 'madrina' de la dana esperantista movado, Iliana Schrøder, kiu estis tre perpleksita kiam ŝi vidis en la programo la nomon de dana esperantisto, kiun ŝi ne sciis - normale ŝi scias ĉiuj kaj ĉio en la campo esperanta en Danujo.

Kaj kion pli oni devas diri? Mi estis tre impresita kun la rapideco kaj praveco de la parolado en esperanto de plej partoprenantoj - ili ŝajnis esti parolintaj la lingvon ilia tuta vivo. Mi estis definitive en la malsupra segmento tie, sed en konsidero de la fakto ke mi preskaŭ ne povis diri ion ajn antaŭ unu jaron kaj ke mi ne havis unu solan konversacion en esperanto antaŭ ci tiu evento, mi ne povis atendi plu. Mi vidas kiel veran kaj sufiĉan progreson ke mi nun povas paroli tiel rapide, ke mi ne havas tempon por nek antaŭdiri kaj nek eviti mia erarojn.


ESP: Mi kun tre granda intereso legis pri viaj spertoj dum la irlanda Esperanto-kongreso kaj ĝojis, ke vi kaptis la okazon, AKTIVE uzi vian esperantan lingvon! Tio estas la celo de Esperanto, ĉar Esperanto ne estis inventita kiel PASSIVA lingvo. Multan dankon pro via kongreso-raporto ĉi-tie en la HTLAL - forumo.

Fasulye

Edited by Fasulye on 20 July 2012 at 7:08pm

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Iversen
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 Message 2981 of 3959
23 July 2012 at 9:16am | IP Logged 
My my, I won't be popular among Esperantists now. I have just uploaded a video where I declare (as in the message above) that it is likely that you can learn one of the 'natural' languages better if you first learn Esperanto one year, then the other language three years, than if you learn that language for four years straight. But it won't matter, because ordinary non-Esperantists parents never ever will accept to postpone for instance their kid's English one year in favor of Esperanto - it just won't happen. And the politicians can't resist the lure of the 'globalist' management mafia, the advertising croonies and the top academic bureaucrats, so they will just give you a slick talk and nothing real to show for it.   

On the other hand there is some idea in making good instruments for language learning and pages with a lot of content in Esperanto in order to attract grown-ups with an interest in foreign languages. And also in placing Esperanto as an ordinary language among other ordinary languages wherever possible. And yes, Esperanto is relatively easy to learn, but it still has for instance the accusative -n and differences in endings according to word classes. For Heavens sake, it is because it has these features, but hardly any irregularities, that it can be used propedeutically! And while we are at the paradoxes: Zamenhof created the language in the same spirit of rationalization and eradication of irregularities that the zealots of English now manifest when they give English names to companies, towns, institutions etc. instead of names in the national languages - just to promote globalism.

The one thing I would hate to see in my own country would be the situation of Malaysia or Singapore, where all books about science are in English, not a local language. But you can't count on politicians to avoid it. The only thing the Esperantists can do is to construct a shelter where they can survive the Anglophone deluge without help from the powers that be. And that means: do a really really convincing job on the internet while it still is relatively free, then you may attract a number of new learners. Wait for the commissioners in Bruxelles to help you and you will be swept away.

Which reminds me of the plight of the Irish language. It will never become the main vehicule of expression in Ireland again, and its elderly* speakers on the peninsula Dingle and the Aran Islands may die out, and some day some populist politicians will convince the population that it is too expensive to carry on teaching Irish to pupils who just never learn the language. And then the last carriers of the Irish torch have to rely on local associations, clubs, families and the internet - just as the Esperantist will have to do.

In spite of these dire predictions the Irish railroads ("Iarnród Éireann") still do take Irish seriously, and I like it! On their rolling information texts in the waggons Irish comes first and is spoken aloud while the text is being shown, and then English comes afterwards. Hurray! One funny detail: when I made my speech about wordlists in Esperanto I used "Gallaimh" (Galway) and "Baile Átha Cliath" (Dublin) as examples. Afterwards I heard on a boat trip to Lake Corrib ("Loch Coirib")that "Gaillaimh" may mean something like "water with stones". "Baile Átha Cliath" (/baele AAwha kleea/) means "town/village of-ford with-hindrances (or cleft)", while "Dubh Linn" means "black water/pond" (the name of the viking settlement there). Add to that one funny detail: many of the stations from Galway to Dublin also have names that refer to water: Athenry (Baile Átha an Rí, meaning "Ford of the King"), Ballinasloe (Béal Átha na Sluaighe, meaning "mouth ford of the hosts (or army)"), Athlone (Baile Átha Luain, meaning "town of Luan's ford") and Dublin itself (Baile Átha Cliath, cfr. above) - but Tullamore and Kildare falls outside this pattern (Tulach Mhór, meaning "mound great", resp. Cill Dara, meaning "church of the oak").

* PS: maybe I'm unfair (or too pessimistic) here. I took the Galway bus 402 back and forth daily including one return trip daily during the lunch break - and I heard several times spoken Irish from young people there. But not once in the black pond o' the troubled water on the Eastern coast.


Edited by Iversen on 23 July 2012 at 10:04am

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Mareike
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 Message 2982 of 3959
23 July 2012 at 9:37am | IP Logged 
In Germany, a few schools teaching Latin as first foreign language. You start with English one or two years later.
The reasons are to get a basic for other Romance language and an other view of the German language.
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Iversen
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 Message 2983 of 3959
25 July 2012 at 11:37pm | IP Logged 
The difference between Latin and Esperanto is at least one year of study time - plus a tradition for Latin studies which stresses reading of classical authors. So for propedeutical purposes Esperanto would be a better choice - if it just was a realistic option (and it won't be when the alternative is an early start for English). As for Latin I personally think it should be learnt after a couple of modern Romance languages because you then better can understand why those languages are as they are. And it should be learnt as an active language even if that means that you won't reach the reading skill required for reading for instance the Eneid. With a purely passive Latin reading too difficult texts will just be puzzle solving, which isn't a relevant goal for me.

ESP: Mi havis kelkajn problemojn kun miaj moviemakeroj hodiaŭ. Mi provis fari du videojn postmeztage sur la komputiloj al mia laboro, la unua en la angla lingvo kaj la alia en esperanto, sed la instalmaniero kaj iuj irritantaj centre administritaj programoj rezultis en memora problemoj, kiuj havis la efikon ke sono kaj bildo ne estis samtempaj. Mi provis kvar fojojn en du komputiloj, sed vane. Kaj hejme la abomeninda besto kriis tiel laŭte, ke ĝi estus aŭdebla en mia video se mi ĝin faris. Do .. neniuj videoj hodiaŭ.

ESP: Eχω βρει το χρόνο να διαβάσει λίγο ελληνικά. Έχω συλλέξει μερικά ελληνικά κείμενα σε καμηλοπαρδάλεις, μεταξύ των οποίων μία από παλαιοντολογικό μουσείο αναφερoμένοντας σε πολλές εξαφανισμένο είδος καμηλοπάρδαλης. Και ως συνήθως, η Βικιπαίδεια είχε επίσης ένα άρθρο. Επίσης έχω ακούσει ελληνική μουσική, ενώ εγώ παρήγγειλα φωτογραφίες και καρτποστάλ.

I would have made a couple of videos about wordlists and other things in English and Esperanto, but at my job there were memory problems on my computers, and at home the usual abomination yelled so loud that it would have been audible on the videos - so no videos today. However I managed to read some Greek articles about giraffes in the bus back from my job, and I have listened to Greek at Youtube while I dealt with my holiday photos and postcards.

PS: my 'holiday postcard' to my travel club mostly dealt with languages so let me quote it (in Danish):

"Der er som bekendt ikke noget land ved navn Esperantistan. Og der er snart heller ikke flere fødte irsktalende i Irland, selv om alle derovre får obligatoriske 12 års undervisning i det i skolen - men i Galway er der ca. 10 % af befolkningen der faktisk er irsktalende. Og selv om de ikke taler det til fremmede og jeg ikke kan tale det endnu, betyder det at man kan dér kan købe bøger mm, som de indskrænkede monoglotter i Baile Átha Cliath (Bajle åha cliah = Dublin) ikke efterspørger. Og så fandt jeg i øvrigt en Travelodge indenfor gåafstand fra både en Aldi og en Lidl - så kan det ikke blive meget bedre! Selve kongressen gik for så vidt også fint - jeg kunne godt forstå de toptunede esperantiske speed-snakkere, og mit eget niveau er også blevet sparket et godt stykke opad.

Ud over de sproglige aktiviteter blev der også tid til noget regulær standard-turisme, med besøg bl.a. i Dublin Zoo og 3 afdelinger af Nationalmuseet, besøg i Galways museum og byens nye akvarium samt ved de særdeles meget berømte Cliffs of Moher (udtales måårv-hör) og en sejltur på Lough Corrib nær Gaillimh (Gajliv = Galway). "

Edited by Iversen on 26 July 2012 at 10:52am

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Iversen
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 Message 2984 of 3959
26 July 2012 at 5:33pm | IP Logged 
Today my computers worked as they should, and the result - 18 minutes about wordlists in English and Esperanto - is in the box - or rather in the tube.


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