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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 3489 of 3959
15 January 2014 at 2:35am | IP Logged 
It is amazing how fast a log can become buried under an avalanche of other learning logs - at least here in January where all the new teams are being established and people are eager to start new learning projects. Not me. I have more than enough to do with my existing projects.

Today I noticed that I had a link to a series of lectures in English about Byzantine emperors, but somehow I didn't feel like listening to lectures. Instead I looked one of them (Zeno) up in Wikipedia, and then the waggon started rolling. First I changed the language to Italian, where the article was just as comprehensive as the English one, and then I read about not only Zeno, but also his main general Illo (which he had to get rid of), and from there I went to Attila the Hun and the falsely named 'Kingdom' of Soisson and the history of the Merovingian dynasty (in French), and after that I spent time doing wordlists in Bahasa Indonesia and studied one article about the find of skeletons with accessories from Thailand somewhere in Indonesia - and then the conclusion is that this find has destroyed the idea that the Indonesian population came from East, i.e. from the Austronesian cultural sphere. Oh no, it came from Thailand. Could somebody then please explain to me why Indonesia and the Malaysian peninsula speak Austronesian languages and not Thai?

IT: "Zenone, il cui nome originale era Tarasis (...) di origine isaurica e per questo considerato quasi un barbaro dal popolo di Costantinopoli" - un imperatore che aveva all'inizio solo il suo matrimonio con la figlia maggiore dell'imperatore Leone I, Ariadne, come argomento per impadronirsi del potere. Dopo un anno di regno fu depositato da Flavio Basilisco, fratello della imperatrice Verina (moglie di Leone I) ed il s'installò in un castello in Isauria (in Asia Minore), ma Basilisco a lasciato la marmaglia uccidere tutti gli Isauri nella capitale, e gli generali isauri Illo e Trocundo hanno logicamente scelto de abbandondare Basilisco e sostenire Zeno, chi poté così riconquistare la sua corona imperiale dopo dieci mese. Ma Illo è diventato troppo pontente e troppo ostinato, e l'imperatrice vedova Verina a dunque cercato di farlo uccidere, ma in vano, e Zeno ha dovuto bandire Verina su richiesta di Illo - il che a fatto della imperatrice Ariadne (figlia di Verina) il nemico mortale di Illo, che aveva già fatto il fratello di Zenone (Longino) prigionero e persino rifiuto di liberarlo quando Zenone gli ha chiesto di farlo. Finalmente Zenone ha riuscito di sfrattare Illo, che si ribellò contro Zenone e liberò Verina che gli fece incoronare un certo Leonzio. Tuttavia, Zenone riuscì on aiuto gotico a sconfiggere Illo, la cui testa assieme con quella di Leonzia è stata inviato all'imperatore. E quale fu la morte di Zenone? Wikipedia scrive: "Secondo una leggenda popolare, registrata da due antichi storici, Zenone sarebbe stato sepolto vivo, dopo aver perso i sensi perché ubriaco o ammalato. Risvegliatosi, avrebbe chiesto aiuto, ma Ariadne non avrebbe permesso di aprire il sarcofago" (!!) Boum! Boum! Boum! aargh....

Da Bisanzio ai goti (e le altre tribù Germaniche che hanno riempito il vuoto lasciato dalla fine dell'Impero Romano d'Occidente), e dai goti & co. a Attila ed gli hunni, e in continuazione ho aggiunto Gallia,...

FR où l'on constate avec consternation qu'une partie de l'empire Romane d'Ouest a survécu une dizaine d'années autour de la ville Soissons, d'abord sous Aegidius, 'magister militum' nommé par l'emperor Majorian (457–461), et puis sous Syagrius, qui pourtant a perdu la bataille de Soissons en 486 contre le roi des francs Clovis... et par conséquent mes études historiques ont tourné vers les rois de la dynastie mérovingienne. Mais tout le monde ici sait décidemment déjà qui étaient ces monsieurs, lesquels je vais donc laisser dans l'obscurité pour me coucher - il est maintenant 2.35 AM ici au Danemark.


Edited by Iversen on 15 January 2014 at 9:59am

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montmorency
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 Message 3490 of 3959
15 January 2014 at 2:42am | IP Logged 
Belated thanks for the great Danish cartoon information Iversen.
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Iversen
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 Message 3491 of 3959
17 January 2014 at 6:31pm | IP Logged 
I have spent some time doing Polish, Russian and Indonesian text studies and wordlists in order to get going with these languages again after my latest holiday and the subsequent photo ordering sessions etc. But there is not much new stuff to write about here. I have also worked on my Greek using Asterix, but you already know that.

And then I have taken step 1 in an attempt to collect the information af TAC 2014 from team threads and other sources (with a list over the teams made by Josquin as the central sine qua non element). It is still not formatted quite like it should be (with names of all the threads which our superdiligent members have produced). but I'm already thinking about compiling a similar thread for the preceding years (or at least 2013), based on preexisting lists - but I'm thinking even more about making a list with those active log files which are outside the TAC system.

If it becomes too easy to find TAC threads then readers of this forum might forget that there are threads which aren't listed in the TAC umbrella - and that would include my own, so I have a certain egoistic interest in finding an alternative solution. It would be logical to base it on some kind of subdivisions based on languages or types, but the problem is to add new threads, categorize them and remove threads that aren't updated any more. And of course avoiding those threads which already are mentioned in the umbrella thread. This is one additional reason for quoting individual thread names in the umbrella thread instad of just referring to their creators.

But not today.

Edited by Iversen on 17 January 2014 at 6:37pm

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Iversen
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 Message 3492 of 3959
21 January 2014 at 1:41pm | IP Logged 
I haven't had time to add to my own log thread since Jan 17, and then it plummeted to page 5! But I found it, and actually I have something to write about. I visited the central library of my town yesterday to get some musical scores, and they were in the basement. But I found more than musical scores down there: I found some kind of language café. There was a big poster saying "Lektiehjælp" (Homework aid), but there were flags on the tables and I heard people speaking Spanish and English at two of them. At a third table with a Danish and an Italian flag an elderly man was sitting with a pixi book, and he turned out to be an immigrant from Afghanistan who wanted to speak Danish. OK, I didn't get a chance to use my Italian, but I hope my interlocutor found the experience useful. At least he now know something about Saxo, Absalon, kings Valdemar I and II and Jyske Lov (the Jutish Law) from 1241 ("mæth logh skal land byggiæs")), and he knows what both the whole and the elements of the word "muldvarpeskud" mean (: molehill). And he became much better at pronuncing the last sound in "Søndervang" (ŋ). In most cases I won't be able to participate in these seances because I work or am on my way home while they take place (Mondays 16-18 according to the poster), but even though they are kept almost as a secret I find that it is a laudable initiative.

Today I would add to the thread about multitrack approaches, and then I found myself in a funny situation with Irish. I wanted to show what a hyperliteral translation is, and because I also wanted to show some preexisting translations of a example sentence I found the first line of a song written by a certain Peadar Ó Dornín and recorded by people like Kate Bush and Sinéad O'Connor, whom even I have heard about. And this is what I found:

(original) Ta bean in Éireann a phronnfadh sead damh is mo shaith le n-ol.
(translations here and here) There's a woman in Ireland who'd give me a gem and my fill to drink.
(translation here: There's a woman in Erin who'd give me shelter and my fill of ale
(Google translate): There's a woman in Ireland who phronnfadh* shad me my fill of ol.
(my translation): Is! woman in Ireland who would-give me shelter* and my enough with drink

This mess was clearly not what I wanted to include in a thread about study methods, so I found something else and moved the Irish fog to the present thread where people are used to a bit of confusion. To clear up the problem with the wildly differing translations I proceeded to consult focloir.ie:

damh1, m. (gs. & npl. daimh, gpl. ~).1. Ox. ~ riata, yoke-ox. ~ comhair, one of pair of oxen, yokefellow; equal, peer. Marú an daimh a thabhairt do dhuine, to overwork, overburden, s.o. Ná tabhair marú an daimh duit féin leis an obair sin, don't kill yourself with that kind of work. 2. ~ (alla), stag. 3. Fig: (a)Strong man, champion. (b)Corpulent person.
damh2, f. (gs. daimhe, npl. ~a, gpl. ~). Lit:House, home. ~ liag, stone house, stone church.
damh3 = dom : do3.


How did that become a 'gem' in the translation at www.irishgaelictranslator.com, which apparently was used in irishgaleictranslator?? And where did the ale come from, unless it was the only liquid available in Ireland at the time?

And what about that "le n-ol"? According to nualeargais "le" (with) (...)

(...) requires the dative.

Initial Mutations:
•without article: no lenition/eclipsis, but the h-prefix precedes a vowel: e.g.:le hAoife = with Aoife
•with article: eclipsis: leis an mbord = with the table
.

But according to wikipedia the initial n- is used with an article and plus the genitive plural form of substantives with an initial vowel (masculine as well as feminine) - and only there. And the article about eclipsis states that - in addition to a number of consonant changes - "A vowel receives a preceding n- (pronounced /n̪ˠ/ before a, o, u, /nʲ/ before e, i). The hyphen is not used before a capital letter."

So now I'm confused. Where is the article? And how can "ol" be a plural word in the genitive? And where is the accent - I thought the correct spelling was "ól"?


Edited by Iversen on 22 January 2014 at 10:27pm

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Iversen
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 Message 3493 of 3959
22 January 2014 at 10:24pm | IP Logged 
GR: Καθόμουν στο χώρο εργασίας μου και προγραμματίσα μέχρι τα μέσα το βράδυ, οπότε δεν υπάρχει χρόνος για σπουδές. Αλλά έχω δύο άρθρα σχετικά τις ιρλανδικές 'μεταλλάξεις' στην τσάντα μου για το ταξίδι στο σπίτι. Χθες ήταν διαφορετική. Εφτασα για αρκετές γλώσσες, που έχουν παραμεληθεί από το νέο έτος - συμπεριλαμβανομένων της ρουμανικά και της ρωσικά. Αλλά πέρασα τον περισσότερο χρόνο στην ελληνική γλώσσα, συμπεριλαμβανομένου του Αστερίξ, όπου βρήκα αυτό το τυπικά ελληνική σειρά των λέξεων: "αυτό είναι η λύση σ'όλα μας τα προβλήματα". Είναι ίσως δυνατό μόνο στα ελληνικά!

I have been working until late this evening and there hasn't been time to study. I do however reckon with half an hour or so to read two articles about initial mutations and the history of the inflected prepositions in Irish on my way back home. Yesterday was different: I worked with a number of languages which have been neglected since my trip to the Netherlands, but most of all I worked on my Greek. For instance I got through one more page of Asterix, and I made some wordlists. Now making Greek wordlists may not sound really exhilarating, but you just have to look for the small things. For instance the name for a magician is "μάγος", magics is "μαγεία" or "μάγια", but "μαγιά" is yeast. Given that "εί" sounds exactly like "ί", how do you keep them apart? Furthermore "μαγιó" means a bathing suite (from French "maillot") and lo and behold, "μαγειρείο" is a kitchen. By some people maybe seen as a place of magic, but for me just the place where I make pizza and eat cornflakes. The real magic for me is a dictionary - any good dictionary will do.

Edited by Iversen on 22 January 2014 at 11:12pm

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renaissancemedi
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 Message 3494 of 3959
22 January 2014 at 10:31pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
GR: Καθόμουν στο χώρο εργασίας μου και προγραμματίσα μέχρι τα μέσα το βράδυ, οπότε δεν υπάρχει χρόνος για σπουδές. Αλλά έχω δύο άρθρα σχετικά της ιρλανδικό 'μεταλλάξεις' στην τσάντα μου για το ταξίδι στο σπίτι. Χθες ήταν διαφορετική. Εφτασα για αρκετές γλώσσες, που έχει παραμεληθεί από το νέο έτος - συμπεριλαμβανομένων της Ρουμανίας και της Ρωσίας. Αλλά πέρασα τον περισσότερο χρόνο στην ελληνική γλώσσα, συμπεριλαμβανομένου του Αστερίξ, όπου βρήκα αυτό το τυπικά ελληνική σειρά των λέξεων: "αυτό είναι η λύση σ'όλα μας τα προβλήματα". Είναι ίσως δυνατό μόνο στα ελληνικά!

For instance the name for a magician is "μάγος", magics is "μαγεία" or "μάγια", but "μαγία" is yeast. Given that "εί" sounds exactly like "ί" and that two of the three words have the accent on the second syllable - how do you keep them apart? Furthermore "μαγιó" means a bathing suite (from French "maillot") and lo and behold, "μαγειρείο" is a kitchen. By some people maybe seen as a place of magic, but for me just a place where I make pizza and eat cornflakes.


yeast is μαγιά

μαγεία or μάγια is witchcraft, as you said.

I have to say, your greek text was a bit strange! I could re write it if you like. I think you use English expressions that don't quite translate in greek.

Out of curiosity, why is that word order strange? It's basic subject-verb-object etc. Usually the greek word order is far more jumbled than this phrase.


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Iversen
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 Message 3495 of 3959
22 January 2014 at 10:49pm | IP Logged 
"All our the problems" ("όλα μας τα προβλήματα") - I don't know any other language where that is a normal word order. But it reminds me about the even more common expression "αυτό το σπίτι" ("this the house"), which also is typically Greek.

You may be right about the influence from English (and Danish) - my Greek is definitely not idiomatic at this point. I don't read much in Greek (it's more studying than reading for pleasure), and I hear next to nothing - well, even Asterix is sometimes hard to read, but nevertheless I find it much easier to read Greek texts now than I did just a year ago. And once I can start reading for pleasure I suppose the true and genuine Greek Sprachgeist will seep slowly into my brain.

And I did discover the country names instead of languages myself and corrected them, but by then you had already quoted the error. Maybe I should compose my texts in Word and then transfer them to HTLAL afterwards - people are simply too fast here! But this is actually a good example of one source of my weird formulations: lofty ambitions. I wanted to write that I had travelled through a number of neglected languages, and then the country names just popped into the text by themselves instead of the languages. And no, I didn't check whether 'yesterday' can be different in Greek (as it can in most of my other languages). A native Greek would probably say this in a totally different way.

Edited by Iversen on 23 January 2014 at 12:49pm

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renaissancemedi
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Greece
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 Message 3496 of 3959
22 January 2014 at 10:55pm | IP Logged 
Actually it's quite impressive how much you have written, that's why it's worth it to point out some things that could be improved.

I'd say, try to use greek expressions as much as possible, and to make sure that gender agrees where it should. Your vocabulary is pretty impressive.

Your attention to fine details of words and etymology is the best thing you can do in greek. It expands your vocabulary and helps spelling. Don't worry about confusing words.

I had no idea that word order was not used in other languages. Thanks for pointing it out.

Edited by renaissancemedi on 22 January 2014 at 10:58pm



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