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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Fasulye
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 Message 961 of 3959
12 June 2009 at 7:00pm | IP Logged 
Jar-ptitsa wrote:
yes, this problem's the same for the dictionaries Dutch - French: always for the Dutch-speakers, for example the gender of the Dutch words isn't always included!!!! This is exasperating. For example, Van Dale would be the best one, but the dictionary of my parents hasn't the Dutch de/het or the de(m) or de (f). But it's old, form about 1990 I think (before I'm born LOL!!)


NL: Klopt inderdaad! Dat was mij nooit opgevallen maar ik heb een een tweetalig woordenboek "Wolters Sterwoordenboek Frans-Nederlands en Nederlands-Frans" en in beide delen van het boek worden steeds de woordgeslachten van de Franse woorden genoemd en niet van de Nederlandse. Het valt makkelijk op, want er is bij onzijdige Nederlandse woorden zoals "huis" geen onzijdig woordgeslacht te vinden. Dat is natuurlijk een nadeel voor mensen uit Wallonië, als ze goed Nederlands willen leren.

Fasulye




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Iversen
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 Message 962 of 3959
13 June 2009 at 12:13pm | IP Logged 
IC: Það var gott veður í gær, og það er ekki sjálfsagt í Island, þar sem veðurið er svo breytilegt. En í gott veður er Reykjavík mjög fagra borg! Eg hef heimsækt 3 stæðir fyrir utan mídborginu: Laugardalen með Botaniska garðurinum og Húsdyrgarðurinum, Arbærbýn og svæðið kring Perlunni sem er mjög falleg. Efter það hef ég aður heimsækt bókaverzlunina frá í gær, en nu keypti ég bók um "Norræn Goðafræði", bók um íslenzku fuglum og islenzk týdning Odyssefskviðannar: "Seg mér, sönggyðja, frá hinum ráðkæna menni er hraktisk mjög við, (....)". Eg get enn ekki lesið bókin á forngrisku, - sjáumst núna ef ég kemst betri af á islenzku!

Eg ætla í dag að sjá 3-4 söfna í miðborginu, og í morgun verð ég þda að fara heim til Danmarkar.

Hvað er nu árangurinn þessarar ferðarar? I Svíþjoð talaði ég litið, en skiljaði allt er svíarnir sagði, og ég vissti í hverju samtali að ég kynni hafa sagð hið sama hlut á sænsku. En ég vissi þó óg, að ég kynni ekki gera þad gallalaust. A islenzku er það ekki svo, ef hef litiðd segð af því að eg kynni ekki segja allt á islenzku, og þá hef eg til öryggis talað ensk eða dönsk. Reynsla mína er að islenningana fái því nær taugaáfall ef útlenningar segi nokkuð á islenzku, sjálfur ef það væri lýtalaust (en hef ég sagt nokkuð lýtlaust??). Hugsa á islenzku er aftur á móti hættulegt.

Eg hef keypt viðeigranda lest, og það er gott tákn að helmingin af öllu orðunum sem ég flett up i hinni litlu Langenscheidts Universalwörterbuch eru ekki að finnast þá. Takmarkið er að þekkja hvert orð og orðdalag i þessum bækunum og blöðum. Einn sak meiri: af því að ég hef heyrd svolitið islenzku (ódyr herbergi = einginn sjónvarp!) hef ég til viðbótar keypt hljoðbók med sögu Egils Skallagrímssonar, - þa kan ég óg heyra islenzk á heimi.


--------

The weather was good yesterday, so I visited three places outside the city center: the Laugurdal ('washing valley') with the Botanical garden and the Domesticated-animals-zoo (which here includes reindeer), the openair museum Árbær plus the restaurant Perlan and in particular the pretty area around it (I didn't eat there). Afterwards I returned to the same bookshop as yesterday and bought a book about Norse mythology, another about Icelandic birds and a translation of the Odyssey into Icelandic, - I cannot yet read it in Homerian Greek, but hopefully I can do it in Icelandic. Today I'm going to visit some museum in the town center, and tomorrow I return home.

So what is the conclusion after this trip? I didn't speak much Swedish, but I know that I understood everything I saw or heard in Swedish, and I could have said the same things in Swedish which I said in Danish, - though not without errors (my level is fairly well indicated in the texts which I had to write without proofreading, and there certainly were some irritating blunders!). In Iceelandic the situation was different: I didn't say much in Icelandic because I knew that I would fairly quickly find the end of my capabilities, and then it is easier just to speak English or Danish. Besides the Icelanders seem to get a stroke everytime they hear a foreigner saying something in their private language (though today the girl at the tourist information immediately understood me when I asked for an hour at the 'tölvu' (the computer)). At least I can now keep up a constant inner monologue in Icelandic, and I have been able to feel a distinct progress in uderstanding spoken Icelandic even after these few days. To remediate the problem that I can't hear any Icelandic at home except the news from RUV (the Icelandic television channel) I have bought an audiobook containing the complete saga of Egil Skallagrimsson, then I at least have one spoken text with a written transcript - I'm cocky enough to believe that I can dispense with the translation after this trip.


Edited by Iversen on 15 June 2009 at 7:57am

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Iversen
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 Message 963 of 3959
13 June 2009 at 12:35pm | IP Logged 
Fasulye wrote:
EN: Thanks for the translation of your Swedish comment on your usage of the language. So mostly you spoke Danish in Sweden to test whether the Swedes could understand you. Did they reply in Swedish or Danish when you spoke Danish???

I don't really believe that Milky Way is as big as Andomeda Galaxy....
I envy a bit your opportunites of buying bilingual dictionaries. ...


They answered without exception in Swedish, and that's also what I excepted - after all we were in Sweden, their own country.

I can only give you the details from the magazine, but sometimes measurements are adjusted - maybe you could ask the other astronomy club members whether they have heard about these new measurements?

And finally: the main reason that a selection of different language combinations for bilingual dictionaries is useful is that you then can control moody points in the translations given from one language, - if you are lead astray by a fluke in one base language then that will probably show up when you try another language combination. However you have to know at least one of the two languages very well to use a bilingual dictionary, and I'm just a tiny bit proud that I have so far been able also to use Swedish as a base language, - I don't need a Danish -Swedish dictionary to find the right word in Swedish.



Iversen wrote:
... the problem is that all dictionaries in that direction (i.e. TO Icelandic) are written for the Icelanders themselves, and so they offer very little information about the morphology of the Icelandic words).

Jar-ptitsa wrote:

yes, this problem's the same for the dictionaries Dutch - French: always for the Dutch-speakers, for example the gender of the Dutch words isn't always included!!!! ...


Het merkwaardige is dat er vele miljoenen mensen zijn die Nederlands spreken, maar relatief weinig die willen leren van de taal. IJsland heeft slechts 250.000 inwoners en z'n taal morfologie is berucht, dus bijna niemand durft te leren van de taal. En de IJslanders zelf verwachten absoluut niet dat iedereen probeert - waardoor het nog moeilijker word.

The strange thing is that there are many millions who speak Dutch, but reatively few that try to learn the language. However Iceland just has a quarter of a million inhabitants, and their morphology is dreaded, so almost nobody tries to learn the language. Besides the Icelanders don't really expect anybody to try which makes it even more difficult.


Edited by Iversen on 15 June 2009 at 7:28am

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Iversen
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 Message 964 of 3959
14 June 2009 at 11:51pm | IP Logged 
Nu er jeg hjemme i Danmark,
Now am I home in Denmark,

men jeg får ikke tid til at skrive ret meget,
but I get not time to to write rather much,

for der ligger et bjerg af e-mails i min postkasse, og det er snart midnat.
for there lies a mountain of e-mails in my postbox, and it is soon midnight.

Det begyndte at regne sidst på eftermiddagen i går i Reykjavik,
It started to rain last on afternoon-The in yesterday in Reykjavik,

men jeg havde heldigvis en paraply med,
but I had luckily an umbrella with,

så jeg fik set de vigtigste museer.
so I got seen the importantest museums.

På vejen hjem har jeg blandt andet læst meget i min nye bog om norrøn mytologi,
On way-the home have I among other read much in my new book about norse mythology,

og jeg kan mærke at min læsefærdighed er blevet betydeligt bedre
and I can feel that my reading-capability is become significantly better

blot efter disse få dage.
just after these few days.

Det er blot irriterende at jeg ikke fik mere lejlighed til at træne talefærdighed
It is just irritation that I didn't get more opportunity to to train speaking-capability

og forståelse af talt islandsk.
and understanding of spoken Icelandic.

Forresten den islandske Odyssé er en skuffelse,
For restThe the Icelandic Odyssey is a disappointment,

- jeg regnede med at det var poesi (ligesom originalen),
- I reckoned that it was poetry (like originalThe),

men den version jeg købte er skrevet i prosa.
but the version I bought is written in prose.

Jeg kan forstå sproget i den,
I can understand languageThe in it,

men jeg tvivler på at jeg vil læse meget af den.
but I doubt on that I will read much of it.

Resten af mine anskaffelser er jeg meget tilfreds med,
RestThe of my buyings am I very satisfied with

og jeg overvejer endda
and I think-over even

om man kan få et udlandsabonnement på den islandske "Lifandi Visindi"
whether one can get a foreigncountry-subscription on the Icelandic "Living science"

til en realistisk pris.
to a realistic price.


Edited by Iversen on 17 June 2009 at 10:30am

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Fasulye
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 Message 965 of 3959
15 June 2009 at 7:31pm | IP Logged 
Welcome back, Iversen!

I already had my dosis of oral Danish yesterday because I discovered a Danish course with several lessons on You Tube. Having a You Tube account I can mark interesting videos as "favourites" and they will appear in my channel. There in my Fasulye 2009 channel www.youtube.com/Fasulye2009 everyone can easily find them. So yeasterday I listened to some Danish lessons and put them as favourites in my You Tube channel. The same I did with some Turkish grammar lessons on an intermediate level. Good to know that such interseting language material is available on You Tube.

With this background I enjoyed reading your hyperliteral translations of Danish. Words like astronomy = astronomi, mythology = mytologi, this seems to be a general rule. So it's useful - from time to time - to have a bit of Danish training, even I have no free capacities to study the language.

Fasulye

Edited by Fasulye on 15 June 2009 at 7:45pm

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Recht
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 Message 966 of 3959
15 June 2009 at 8:48pm | IP Logged 
Don't you guys love it when you hear words that you've just learned in a lecture or
video? I heard "verkösten" today was happy :)
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Iversen
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 Message 967 of 3959
16 June 2009 at 5:03pm | IP Logged 
Am avut un lucru mare să imprim de pe loc de muncă, şi în timp ce imprimanta a fost lucrat m-am întrebat ce să fac uneori. Deci, m-am gândit că a fost mult timp că nu am facut nici un lucru în limba română, şi deoarece am pus numele "Sinaia" la pagina Google - oraşul a fost una din destinaţiile pe a mea călătorie în România la anul 2006. Am ajuns in primul rând la gară, şi pe site-ul http://www.primariasinaia.ro se afla de fapt o secţiune cu privire la acest loc. Se pare că, în plus faţă de gara regulare, exista de asemenea o gară "Regală" care este închis pentru public.

Sinaia este cunoscută ca destinaţie pentru sporturile de iarna, dar pentru mine este în primul rând locul în care se găseşte castelul regal "Peleş", care a fost construit între 1873 şi 1914. Existe şi un castel vecin Pelisor al cărului stil e mult mai simplu, şi tot un complex cu hoteluri şi restaurante. In contrast, stilul de Peleş este cu adevărat luxos, şi se menţionează cu mândrie că acest probabil a fost primul castel electrificat in intregime din Europa. Se vizită numai pe tur cu ghid, iar în ceea ce-mi amântesc am venit cu un grup nemţesc - a fost la scurt timp după ce mi-am reluat studiul de limbi, şi al meu român nu a fost doar plutitor. Pe de altă parte, a fost destul de bun pentru că am putut să aibă schimbat un bilet de tren la Gara de Nord, caruia lucru a însemnat că am avut să mă adresez la trei puncte diferite.

Peles a servit ca palat regal până la 1947, când Mihail II a fost aruncat afară, şi apoi a fost într-o perioadă scurtă casa de cultură sub regimul comunist. Dar dictatorul Ceaucescu l-a închis ermetic pe toata zona, şi numai după ce acesta a fost executat a fost din nou accesibilă pentru oricine. De fapt nu l-a placut castelul de loc: a preferit noua sa monstruozitate la Bucuresti (din păcate eu nu au avut timp de a privi această clădire).

-----

I had a large print job at my job, and while the printer was busy I had some free minutes. I haven't dealt with Romanian for some time, so I gave Google the place name Sinaia to play with. This is the name of one of the destinations of my trip to Romania in 2006, and I found a home page where even the railway station was described in loving detail. In fact there is not only the public station, but also a hermetically closed 'royal' railway station which apparently was last used under Ceaucescu. The town is a renowned winter sports center, but I couldn't care less: for me it is the place where you can visit the exuberant royal palace Peles. This place was built between 1873 şi 1914, and from then on it was used as a royal palace until the last king of Romania Michael II was deposed in 1947. After that it was used as a culture house for some years, until Ceaucescu closed off the whole area, in spite of the fact that he really didn't like the place - he preferred his own new monstruous palace in Bucuresti. However Peles and its surroundings remained closed until he had been shot down as a mad dog in 1989.

Right now I'm listening to Beowulf, partly spoken in true Anglosaxon - and frankly I don't understand much of that language yet, but it sounds nice. Fasulye is right, there are some interesting things on youtube, but you have to search hard for them

Besides I have just found out that there will be a 5½ minut long solar eclipse July 21, but it will only be visible from the Southern part of China and I can't speak any kind of Chinese, so I can't comment further on this subject. Sorry about that.


Edited by Iversen on 16 June 2009 at 11:48pm

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Iversen
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 Message 968 of 3959
17 June 2009 at 9:58am | IP Logged 
I spent a couple of hours yesterday on that sempiternal lure of mine: Tagalog/Pilipino. One element in my learning method for new languages is to find a text, preferably bilingual, and then make a hyperliteral translation of it, sentence for sentence, word for word (which by the way isn't too far from the method that Kato Lomb describes in her book, which I have reread after the English version of it has been mentioned again in a thread here).

The step after that will be to copy the text by hand, noting down all new words and reusing them in three-column wordlists, - but I'm not there yet. And still further up the ladder the relevant activity will be just to read through the texts and note down relevant words and constructions.

My sample text was an excerpt from the Book of Kings II in Danish and Tagalog, made with the help of the Lexilogos site. However I found that I have another, even more useful bilingual source, namely those two of my dictionaries that have been compiled by the excellent Maria Odulio de Gúzman (note the Spanish-sounding name, - Spanish names and loanwords are common in the Philippines, though the actual use of the language has all but died out). The reason is that they contain examples of all the lexemes, such as...

luktón n[oun] Grashopper, Balang [<--- synonym)
Lilia is fond of eating grasshoppers.
Mahilig kumain ng luktón o balang si Lilia

(be inclined to - eat* - grasshopper [or locust] focus:Lilia   - I don't see the need for "o balang", because "balang" apparently also means grasshopper or locust)

*kumain is of course an active -um-verb, cfr. my earlier postings about Tagalog verbs, so the element with focus will here be seen as a subject
Note also that the grasshoppers/locusts are unfocused ('ng') and therefore by inference objects in the presence of an active verb.

I still have to check some of the words in such a sentence, eg. Mahilig v[erb] = "To be inclined to" and and Balang (apparently a synonym for grasshopper). But with a growing vocabulary there will be less and less use for these lookups, and until then they aren't too cumbersome because I can use the very same book for the purpose. The drawback of this kind of dictionary is of course that the total number of lexemes will be limited, but right now it is more important to get a good start with a limited vocabulary. I wonder whether others have seen this kind of dictionary for other languages, because it seems to me to be a valuable addition to the arsenal of learning tools.



Edited by Iversen on 17 June 2009 at 11:38am



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