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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 2401 of 3959
10 May 2011 at 10:58pm | IP Logged 
GR: Ζήτω, έχω κλείσει μια τρύπα στο ελληνικό λεξιλόγιο μου! Στο νήμα για τα ελληνικά νησιά στο τμήμα πολύγλωσσα του φόρουμ, Polyglot_gr γράφει: "Όποιος αμφιβάλλει ας γκουγκλίσει "Λευκάδα" ή "Κεφαλλονιά". Ευχαριστώ για αυτό, αλλά αυτό που ονομάζεται "google" σε ενεστώτα χρόνο; Πρώτη εικασία μου ήταν Ono, αλλά μετά από κάποιο "γκουγκλήση" (??) βρήκα ένα ολόκληρο άρθρο σχετικά με αυτό το απολύτως απαραίτητο λέξης: "Εσείς γκουγκλάρετε, γκουγκλίζετε ή γκουγκλεύετε;". Και στο παρόν Langlas γράφει: "Εφόσον το γκουγκλ είναι ξένη λέξη, ο κανονικός σχηματισμός είναι με -άρω.", Έτσι, δίνει στήριξη στην λέξη "γκουγλάρω". Στη συνέχεια, όμως, γράφει ότι αρέσει καλύτερα τον πιο καλλίφωνους "γκουγκλίζω". Αλλά αργότερα: "Θα μπορούσε κανείς να σκεφτεί και άλλες επιλογές, όπως "“γκουγκλάω" ή "γκουγκλώνω". Έτσι, τώρα είμαι στα σοβαρά σύγχυση!

In the thread about Greek islands in the multilingual subforum Polyglot_gr halfways solved a lexical Greek problem for me by giving the optative form of the Greek word for "to Google" (and thereby also the aorist stem). But what is the present form? My first guess was "γκουγκλώνω" because several Greek verbs on -ώνω have an aorist stem containing -σ- ... for some reason "γκουγκλώςω" didn't appeal to me. In such situation there is of course only one thing to do: Googl! And I found a whole article on a homepage called sarantakos.wordpress.com about this single word, which however only made me more confused. The author first quotes another expert for writing that the logical form would be "γκουγλάρω", but then goes on to support the more euphoneous "γκουγκλίζω", and later even "γκουγκλεύω", "γκουγκλάω" ή "γκουγκλώνω" are mentioned.

Dear Greeks .. couldn't you make a poll or something to decide on one and only one of these possibilities? I NEED that word!



Edited by Iversen on 10 May 2011 at 11:11pm

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Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 4835 days ago

9078 posts - 16470 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
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 Message 2402 of 3959
12 May 2011 at 2:48am | IP Logged 
I have spent much of the evening making wordlists in different languages. Most of these have been devoted to words from the pages I copy, and this activity has been one of my main time guzzlers lately because I have several new languages on the working table, and copying from bilingual sheets (while making my own translation) has become one of my favorite techniques to deal with new languages. But I also copy pages in some of my intermediate languages, sometimes from bilingual texts, sometimes from monolingual texts, and the mountain of paper just grows and grows.

For instance I made a wordlist with 60 Greek words from texts (including an article in Greek about the low rate of internet use among Greek children), but then felt that I really missed some structure - and then I added 60 words directly from the dictionary - all with initial "κου-". Actually the alphabetical order is an excellent memory tag which makes memorizing easier. Words from texts have of course a context and they feel homely because I already have notated them down in the margin of my copies ... but nothing compares to a string of words all beginning with "κου-", but with wildly differing meanings.     

After that I copied one more page about the Karoo in Afrikaans and proceeded to Polish, where I made a wordlist based upon my articles about bin Laden and Lidl and poverty.

IT: La notte scorsa mi sono svegliato alle 4, e invece di ritornare a dormire mi sono alzato, me ha messo nella mia poltrona con alcune carte e accesi la televisione. E mi ritrovai per una selva oscura ché la diritta via era smarrita sulla stazione inferiore Raiuno, dove c'era tuttavia questa notte un video del Palazzo Farnese di Roma ed un'altro da Trento, città che ho visitata l'anno scorso (il luogo maledetto dove la povera stazione ferroviaria era stata convertita in un inferno di rumore da una società pubblicitaria maleficia che aveva posto schermi video gridanti e cantanti dappertutto - probabilmente non riverrai mai più Trento!)



Edited by Iversen on 12 May 2011 at 1:15pm

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Iversen
Super Polyglot
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9078 posts - 16470 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
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 Message 2403 of 3959
16 May 2011 at 2:01pm | IP Logged 
ESP: Mi luis aŭton vendredon al dimanĉo, tial mi pasigis la semajnfinon ekster mia hejmo. Mi tamen studis lingvojn en la vesperoj, alportinta du paperojn: "Esperanto en dialogo" kaj " A complete and comprehensive grammar".

Kaj mi pripensis iujn punktojn de Esperanto.

Ĉi tiu lingvo havas aĵojn nomatajn "korelaciajn", kiu en aliaj lingvoj estus konsiderataj kiel pronomoj de malsama tipoj. Almenaŭ en la 'kompleta gramatiko' la latina/angla vorto "pronomo" estas nur uzataj pri propraj pronomoj. La ceteroj estas organizita post tipo: 'Interrogative' ki- , kaj post enco: "kind of, sort of " -a. La tablo apparente ne inkluzivis relativajn korelaciajn - tamen ilin estas la samaj kiel la demandovortoj korelaciaj, sed por la lernanto estus praktike vidi la vorton 'relative'. Ni ĉiuj bezonas relativojn.

Mi havas ankaŭ alian plendon, ĉifoje kun Sro. Zamenhof: kial la signo de la 'adjectival determiner' estas - u? Devus esti -a ! Tamen -a estas okupata de " tia ... kia" korelacia ("kia" = " kia"). Mi preferus ke la pli ofta kaj pli ĝenerala kategorio antaŭrajtus. Sed hodiaŭ estas tro malfrue amendi tion. Plie la mallogikaj partoj de la lingvoj estas tiuj, kiuj donas ĝijn karakteron. Malfacilaĵoj estas kiel spicoj en via manĝaĵo.

---

I hired a car and spent the weekend outside my home. When I returned home Sunday my internet connection didn't function, and a flickering orange diode at the net port on my switched-off computer could be the sign of a technical problem. Maybe we have had thunder and lightening, I dunno.

I didn't just visit zoos and aquaria (5) and manors and museums (2) and hotels (1) and pizza parlours (1) and supermarkets (2), I also spent an evening studying two papers about Esperanto. In one of these, the "Complete and Comprehensive (and concise) Grammar" at wikibooks, I found as expected the ingenuous table of 'correlatives'. In most grammars for other languages these would have been labelled as different kinds of pronouns, but here the only official pronouns are those commonly known as the personal ones. But hey, where are the relatives? Actually they are the same as the interrogative ones, but it would have been a good idea to indicate this in the table. We all need relatives.

I have one minor quibble with the great Dr. Zamenhof, namely that the marker for "adjectival determiners" is -u, not the more logical -a (all other adjectival words including adjectives have an -a). It turns out that the -a has been given away to correlative words signifying "kind of, sort of" ("kia" = 'what a', "tia" = 'such a'). Common sense would have dictated that the more general category prevailed, but apparently not here ... and it is too late now to let the two series exhange their markers.

After all, what is a language without a number of strange features? Zamenhof may have introduced a few quirks to make his language more lifelike - like spice in your food.

Edited by Iversen on 17 May 2011 at 1:48pm

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Iversen
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 Message 2404 of 3959
17 May 2011 at 4:51pm | IP Logged 
I had some time left at my job after doing today's tasks, and I found a very interesting thesis by Lars Bundgaard in Danish about the situation for foreign language learning in Denmark. And it is depressing, to say the least. The situation is that English is becoming not only the dominating foreign language, but it may in the worst case scenario end up being the only foreign language taught in schools. And there are people who think that this proces can't go fast enough. Even though it is clear that languages like Spanish, Portuguese and French are spoken by hundreds of millions of persons, including many who are monolingual or at least not able to have a conversation in English, these persons in all seriousness believe that English is enough. Well, not many here can read the paper, which is a pity.

The one thing I miss in both this paper and in Danish school politics is a willingness to see homestudy as an alternative (whether the powers that be like it or not). If schools stop offering courses in French and German and other languages and prices on (inefficient) evening schools remain high then this will be the main alternative, and it was about time to give people some ideas about independent language learning (similar to the advice they can get here at HTLAL).

Ye readers of Scandinavian languages could also have fun reading some of the articles at Sprogmuseet.dk - for instance there is an article in Swedish about meaningless runic stones. The subject came up because one scholar suggested that the language on one such stone was Basque (!), but few people accept this. If any of you can read Basque then you find the transliterated text below. The alternative interpretation is that a number of runic 'masters' at the end of the viking age took orders for runic stones without having the necessary qualifications for the job.   

Side A: m- : srnes-sn : urn=u=kb(h) | -a=si | s(n)rþmi : itcsih(k)i : li
Side B: isifuþrlak : iseya : li


Edited by Iversen on 18 May 2011 at 9:27pm

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Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 4835 days ago

9078 posts - 16470 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
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 Message 2405 of 3959
18 May 2011 at 6:10pm | IP Logged 
I'm back on the internet! I gave up waiting for miracles and went downtown to buy a net card, opened my computer, put the card in a likely place in its belly, closed the whole thing again (only loosing one screw in the process) and switched it on ... and lo and behold, here I am!

But now I'm going to surf on the internet - I'm four days behind schedule. And I also have a heap of e-mails ominously waiting for me, and besides there are some printouts to study and some TV to watch, so I'll be quite busy now.

ESP: Mi nur volis mencii ke mi studitis la paĝojn pri kelkaj birdoj sur Eo.wikipedia.com, inter tiuj la artikoloj pri la nigra kaj la blanka cikonio. Kiam mi volis mencii ĉi tiu tie ĉi en mia fadeno, mi serĉis "La nigra cikonio (Ciconio nigra) el la ordo de" ... kaj trovis tion multajn paĝojn kiuj simple ŝtelis la tekstojn de laŭvorte Vikipedio, anstataŭ produkti iun originalan materialon. Tamen unu serĉado pri la nigra cikonio gvidis mi al neatendita trovo, nome unu rakonto el H.C. Andersen - La vento rakontas pri Valdemaro Doe kaj pri liaj filinoj (ĝusta literumo: ne Doe, sed Daa!). La neatendita afero ne estis ke ĝi estas tradukita, sed ke ĝi enhavas aludon pri la nigra cikonio kaj ne nur al la blanka cikonio. Normale unu vidas sole la blankan cikonion en la fikcio.

I have studied some printouts about birds from the Esperantean Wikipedia (including those about the black and the white stork). When I wanted to mention this activity here I searched for a sentence from one of my printouts and found a whole string of pages that had quoted the article from Wikipedia verbatim. However a search for just the black stork also led me to an unexpected find, namely one of H.C. Andersen's tales which has been translated into Esperanto. And no, the unexpected thing is not that it has been translated, but that it contains a reference to the black stork and not just to the white stork, which was common in Denmark during his lifetime. Since then the numbers of white storks has plummeted so that there now are more black storks than white storks here - but you just don't see them because they are more secretive.



Edited by Iversen on 18 May 2011 at 9:26pm

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Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 4835 days ago

9078 posts - 16470 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
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 Message 2406 of 3959
20 May 2011 at 1:09am | IP Logged 
BA I: Saya sudah belajar Bahasa Indonesia dengan berbagai cara hari ini. Pertama, saya mendengarkan TV Liputan yang punya berita. Jadi aku mencoba untuk membiarkan Google melakukan beberapa terjemahan ke dalam bahasa Indonesia dari teks-teks pendek untuk mendengar mereka dengan suara buatan, tapi tidak suara yang bagus. Jadi saya mendengarkan Rusia dengan cara yang sama, tetapi beralih ke A Capela, yang terdengar lebih menyenangkan. Dan malam ini, saya belajar suatu bagian dari brosur wisata biasa saya.

I have spent time on several languages today, including Bahasa Indonesia. First I listened to TV Liputan which has recorded news - and I understood some words here and there, but not the whole thing. Then I wanted to study some shorter passages and let Google translate produce some short passages which its synthethizer then could read - it is against my principles, but it only functions in this direction. And I soon stopped because of the low sound quality. I did the same for a while with Russian, but switched to the A Capela-synthethizer, where you can choose yourself what you listen to. And the voice here was more agreable. I then briefly listened to a Russian TV station (TV2 or TV21 through WWI.TV.com) until they began to play music. This evening I have made Polish wordlists and studied a passage from my usual tourist brochure in Bahasa Indonesia.


Edited by Iversen on 20 May 2011 at 1:10am

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Iversen
Super Polyglot
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Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 4835 days ago

9078 posts - 16470 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
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 Message 2408 of 3959
23 May 2011 at 12:40am | IP Logged 
Kuikentje wrote:
I haven't seen a black stork or white one, but I've seen photos of the white ones because they build their nests on the churches and the high buildings in the south of Europe, unfortunaetly not so north than here. I've seen on the migration map that they are here in the summer, but I haven't seen them.

haha!


The only kind of stork I have seen in Europe is the white one, which almost has disappeared from Denmark, but I have seen it for instance in Spain and Poland. In Africa I have seen several species of storks, but also ordinary white storks from Europe because they stay in East Africa during the winter.

GE: Ich habe meine Familie am Wochenende besucht, und auf dem Weg dazu und davon konnte ich im Zug ein Bißchen lesen, und ich habe dort Spiegel Wissen Nr. 4 von 2009, der so ziemlich alles wissenwertes über den Schlaf kommentiert, fertiggelesen. Es gab darin nicht viel neues, aber doch einige unterhaltsame Details. Zum Beispiel wird auch Seite 99 von ein gewissen William Domhoff, der versucht luzides Träumen für die Trainung von Athleten einzusetzen - also Zielwürfe im Traum machen uzw. Für mich scheint dies etwas banal und fantasielos, aber ich sehe durchaus die Möglichkeiten darin für Sprachtrainung, and dann wird es etwas spannender - vorausgesetzt das man einen sehr viel höher Frequenz von luzides Träumerei erzwingen kann. Und da bin ich etwas skeptisch.

ES: Mi ankaŭ studis iujn esperanton tekstojn (ĉar mi scias ke mi devus povi paroli i kompreni ĝin en Julio). Laŭ la unua teksto "Lingvistoj antaŭ nelonge identigis lingvon, la 'koro', en fora regiono en la nordoriento de Barato,"... Barato? Barato. Kial ke Barato ('India') akiris la nomon 'Barato' en Esperanto? Nur 800 homoj parolas 'koro', kiu apartenas al la tibeta-birma lingvogrupo. La dua teksto rakontis pri la 50 kilometron longa St. Gotthard tunelo en la Svisaj Alpoj.

RU: Я также привел с собой небольшой русский словарь, так что я могу сделать списки слов.

The TV program which was the most interesting for me this weekend was mostly in English, but with some passages in French, and it was shown om NRK2 (from Norway). First the old Benin kingdom in Western Africa was described, including the fact that an English army utterly destroyed its capital and removed a lot of pictural tablets and statues. Now the idea was to trace the origin or background of this tradition. First we visited Timbuktu ('Tombouctou' en Français) in Mali, but due to the long and strong Moslem culture here it was not relevant as carrier of a pictural tradition. Next we visited Djenné, which is at least as Islamic as Timbuktu, but the architecture here has some of the symbolic content of the Benin pictures - 2 towers = two wives, 5 turrets = 5 children etc. However the culture in Mali that really has something parallel to the pictoral tradition of the Benin court is the one of the Dogon people. The funny thing is of course that I visited these places as late as January.

BA I : Sekarang adalah program di National Geographic Wild tentang 'Orang Pendek' ('orang kecil' dalam bahasa), yang menurut beberapa saksi mata yang kuat dan besar dan berjalan pada dua kaki. Ini rupanya tinggal di Sumatera, dan tidak orangutan sebuah ('Orang hutan' - forest man). Program ini dalam bahasa Inggris, tapi dengan para potongan pendek dalam Bahasa Indonesia.

Right now I'm watching a program about orang pendek, which means 'small man' in Bahasa Indonesia - but it is fairly large, light brownish and strong, and it walks as a supermodel according to one of the eyewitnesses who until now have described their sightings in the program (both natives from Sumatra and Westerners). The find of Homo florensiensis (a minuscule offspring of Homo Erectus from the island Flores) has of course made the reports about 'orang pendek' even more interesting. And no, it is NOT a forest-man (orang hutan).


Edited by Iversen on 14 September 2011 at 12:34am



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