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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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renaissancemedi
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 Message 3497 of 3959
22 January 2014 at 11:00pm | IP Logged 
I have a suggestion. A film instead of a book.

How about an old greek comedy that has colloquial language as used by all of us, plus it's a well known film.



Τζένη Τζένη
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Josquin
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 Message 3498 of 3959
22 January 2014 at 11:25pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
And what about that "le n-ol"? According to nualeargais "le" (with) (...)

(...) requires the dative.

Initial Mutations:
•without article: no lenition/eclipsis, but the h-prefix precedes a vowel: e.g.:le hAoife = with Aoife
•with article: eclipsis: leis an mbord = with the table
.

But according to wikipedia the initial n- is used with an article and plus the genitive plural form of substantives with an initial vowel (masculine as well as feminine) - and only there. And the article about eclipsis states that - in addition to a number of consonant changes - "A vowel receives a preceding n- (pronounced /n̪ˠ/ before a, o, u, /nʲ/ before e, i). The hyphen is not used before a capital letter."

So now I'm confused. Where is the article? And how can "ol" be a plural word in the genitive? And where is the accent - I thought the correct spelling was "ól"?

This definitely isn't a genitive plural. According to Learning Irish, the preposition "le" prefixes n- to an initial vowel when it has the meaning "to", e.g. "Tá neart le n-ithe agus le n-ól" ("There is plenty to eat and to drink").

However, I'm clueless as to why the fada is missing on "ol" here. Maybe a typo?

Perhaps, liammcg can shed some more light on this.
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jeff_lindqvist
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 Message 3499 of 3959
23 January 2014 at 1:17am | IP Logged 
When in doubt, use a major search engine. I included the phrase with the fada "ól" and found this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2le9ustRRs

I think it's likely that it's just a typo. Worse things have happened.

irish grammar le eclipse n-ól gave this:

Quote:
as for that le n-ól vs le h-ól/le hól,
le n-ól when le is used in the same sense as chun - "in order to"


(from http://www.irishgaelictranslator.com/translation/topic99544. html)

See also:
Quote:
The construction "le" + verbal noun describes a purpose for the "something" that has yet to occur. It may make things clearer if we translate the above examples as though the verbal noun is a "passive infinitive" instead of the infinitive used in the book, i.e. "something to be eaten" and "something to be drunk" instead of "to eat" and "to drink".
(page 3, same thread)

I'm sure I've seen le+eclipsed verbal nouns starting with vowels as in the above examples. I can ask my teacher if she has some other explanation.

Edited by jeff_lindqvist on 23 January 2014 at 1:17am

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Iversen
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 Message 3500 of 3959
23 January 2014 at 12:23pm | IP Logged 
I think I'll stick to the special-rule-for-"le" explanation. I have a couple of Irish grammars at home (one worthless TY and one decent one with some quirks), but when I really want to know something I prefer www.nualeargais.ie, which on the page reserved for "le" has the following information:

...
3.purpose/requirement: (with the verbal noun): (in order) to : le balla a phéinteáil = in order to paint the wall, neart le n-ól = to drink a lot, scéal le hinsint = to tell a story
here, the n-prefix precedes a vowel (otherwise no eclipsis)
4.adj + le + verbal noun : maith le hithe = good to eat, blasta le hól = tasty to drink, crua le cogaint = hard to chew

And in the quote we had "mo shaith le n-ol", which surely is a requirement for the relevant segment of the Irish population, but doesn't contain an adjective. So pattern 3. is the one that governs this case.

Thanks to Josquin and Jeff_Lindquist for elucidating the mystery

In the bus back home from work yesterday I read the page about the causes of Initial mutations. And as you might have guessed the explanation is tied to now lost endings of the preceding words. It is already clear from Modern Irish that the mutations have more to do with the preceding 1-2 words than with the words in which the changes occur, but in older stages of the language the relevant word endings were still there. For instance it is stated in the article that

"The masculine article (*sindos) was *sindi´in the genitive singular and thus incurred lenition.

.. and

Eclipsis and the n-prefix occur where today or once the preceding word ended in an nasal (m,n,ng, mostly n) (...) After preposition + article, either eclipsis or lenition can occur, depending on the dialect. Why?: The original accusative singular form of the articles were *sindon (masc.) and *sindan (fem.). It ends then with an -n as a nasal, and this is why today eclipsis follows: ar an mbord = on the table. Just as in German, there was the possibility of the accusative or the dative after certain prepositions (depending on the desired meaning: motion or position, in German e.g.: auf dem Tisch and auf den Tisch). The dative form of the article was now *sindu (masc.) or *sinda (fem.), which of course caused lenition (this is why in Ulster today still following preposition and article lenition is always used). Today this lexical differentiation between dative and accusative following a preposition no longer is used. After most prepositions now follows always the dative or what remains of it. If lenition or eclipsis is used, ist now more a question of dialect (Connacht/Munster: ar an mbord = on(to) the table , Ulster: ar an bhord = on(to) the table ). In the genitive plural, the article once was also *sindan, from which eclipsis resulted.

And now I really would like to see a complete paradigm for the articles in Old Irish!

Edited by Iversen on 23 January 2014 at 12:44pm

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Josquin
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 Message 3501 of 3959
23 January 2014 at 1:11pm | IP Logged 
The definite articles that appear in the text are from Proto-Celtic not Old Irish. I can give you the paradigm for the definite article in Proto-Celtic according to David Stifter's Sengoídelc:

Masculine:

Sg.

N *sindos
G *sindī
D *sindūĭ, -ū, -ūð
A *sindom

Pl.

N *sindī
G *sindoĭsom
D *sindobis
A *sindūs

Dual

N *sindo
G *sindō
D *sindobim
A *sindo

Feminine

Sg.

N *sindā
G *sindās
D *sindaĭ
A *sindam

Pl.

N *sindās
G *sindoĭsom
D *sindābis
A *sindās

Dual

N *sindaĭ
G *sindō
D *sindābim
A *sindaĭ

Neuter

Sg.

N *sosim
G *sindī
D *sindūĭ, -ū, -ūð
A *sosim

Pl.

N *sindā (?)
G *sindoĭsom
D *sindobis
A *sindā (?)

Dual

N *sindo
G *sindō
D *sindobim
A *sindo

If you're interested I can also give you the paradigm for the definite article in Old Irish, which has considerably changed.
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Iversen
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 Message 3502 of 3959
23 January 2014 at 2:10pm | IP Logged 
Please?
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Josquin
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 Message 3503 of 3959
23 January 2014 at 3:35pm | IP Logged 
Well, the articles in Old Irish are a rather messy topic (just as almost everything in Old Irish grammar). They are somewhere between Proto-Celtic and Modern Irish and combine the many cases of Proto-Celtic with the phonological complexity of Modern Irish. This shows us that many of the phonological changes which distinguish Irish had already taken place at that time.

Just as in Modern Irish, a consonant can be inserted between the article and the intitial sound of the noun. However, in Old Irish, the consonant is suffixed to the article and not prefixed to the noun. N sg. masc. suffixes a "t" before vowels, so the definite article is written "int".

In D + G sg. + N pl. masc. and in N + D sg. fem., a "d" is suffixed before vowels or l, r, n or f, while a "t" is suffixed before s, so the definite article is either "ind" or "int". I have indicated that with a bracketed d or t.

Also, lenition, eclipsis (which is called "nasalization" in Old Irish grammar), or the prefixation of an "h" before vowels can be triggered by the article. I have indicated that with a bracketed +L, +N, or +H.

The article in the dative tends to combine with a preceding preposition. It's seldom found on it's own, because the dative is mostly found after prepositions. Whether the form with or without "s(i)" is used, depends on the preposition.

Last but not least, "inna" is an older form of the plural article. In later texts, it's shortened to "na".

Well, this is all rather confusing, but here you go:

Masculine

Sg.

N in(t)
G in(d/t) (+L)
D -(si)n(d/t) (+L)
A in (+N)

Pl.

N in(d/t) (+L)
G (in)na (+N)
D -(s)naib
A (in)na (+H)

Dual

N in dá (+L)
G in dá (+L)
D -(s)naib dib (+N)
A in dá (+L)

Feminine

Sg.

N in(d/t) (+L)
G (in)na (+H)
D -(s)in(d/t) (+L)
A in (+N)

Pl.

N (in)na (+H)
G (in)na (+N)
D -(s)naib
A (in)na (+H)

Dual

N in dí (+L)
G in dá (+L)
D -(s)naib dib (+N)
A in dí (+L)

Neuter

Sg.

N a (+N)
G in (+L)
D -(si)n (+L)
A a (+N)

Pl.

N (in)na
G (in)na (+N)
D -(s)naib
A (in)na

Dual

N in dá (+N)
G in dá (+N)
D -(s)naib dib (+N)
A in dá (+N)

Edited by Josquin on 23 January 2014 at 3:48pm

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jeff_lindqvist
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 Message 3504 of 3959
23 January 2014 at 5:36pm | IP Logged 
Thanks, Josquin, you just saved me a lot of time! (The Old Irish course started Monday this week)


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