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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Fasulye
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 Message 1153 of 3959
28 July 2009 at 4:47pm | IP Logged 
Es interesante leer sobre los Vikingos (??) y sus experencias historias en Groenlando (??), ellos son bastante desconocidos en Alemania. Cuando estuve en Danimarca primero compré un libro sobre los Vikingos en el inglés, porque sabía totalmente nada de ellos.

Los ultimos dias estuve my activa con el site LingQ y los textos y audios en el espanol que me gustan muchisimo. Es un poco como utlilizar el site de GLOSS. También fue en la mediateca quasi cada día para hacer fotocopias de la revista "ECOS" y para estudiar los ejercicios espanoles de esta revista.

Puede ser que eso para mi turco no es optimal y tampoco para este forum, porque así tengo menos tiempo para escribir aquí.

Naturalamente continuo mi grupo de estudio del turco y hago los deberes de casa, eso sí.

Fasulye
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Iversen
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 Message 1154 of 3959
28 July 2009 at 11:22pm | IP Logged 
SP: (a Fasulye) Almeno tienes en este situación todo el tiempo del mundo para estudiar el Español (en cima del turco y el esperanto y la astronomía). Con un trabajo nuevo tiendras mucho menos tiempo para estas cosas, dunque tienes que aprovechar la oportunidad ahora . Y francamente yo no creo que seria una buena idea pasar todo el dia estudiando un solo idioma.

IC: Eg hef nú lesið grænlindinga sögu, og er miki gaman í hínni, - kimmigáfa víkinga er einkannað af úrdráttar og stutturalegt tölu, og ég rein efter megni að visa það í ofbókstafelgt þýdingi. Bjarni Herjolfsonur hefur búað í Noregi, en faðir hans bjó á Islandi á 'Eyrum' (átvinnuþýding hér):

(I have now finished the short Greenlander's saga, and it certainly had its fair share of humor - the Old Norse authors were masters of understatement and laconic expressions. To give an impression of their style I have made a short hyperliteral translation of the passage that describes Bjarni's not-quite-discovery of America - 500 years before Columbus:

(...)

Það sama sumar kom Bjarni skipi sínu á Eyrar er faðir hans hafði brott siglt um vorið.
That same summer came Bjarne (with) ship his to Eyrar [a place in Iceland] where father his had away sailed away (in) spring

Þau tíðindi þóttu Bjarna mikil og vildi eigi bera af skipi sínu.
That times (message) found Bjarna big and would not move off ship his.

Þá spurðu hásetar hans hvað er hann bærist fyrir
Then asked sailors his what () he 'carried' for (=had in mind)

en hann svaraði að hann ætlaði að að halda siðvenju sinni og þiggja að föður sínum veturvist
but he answered that he intended-to to hold (=keep) custom his and ask by father-his winter-stay.

"og vil eg halda skipinu til Grænlands ef þér viljið mér fylgd veita"
"and will I hold shipThe to Greenlands if you will me company offer"

Allir kváðust hans ráðum fylgja vilja.
All declared his advice follow will

Þá mælti Bjarni: "Óviturleg mun þykja vor ferð þar sem engi vor hefir komið í Grænlandshaf."    
Then spoke Bjarni: "Stupid may seem our journey there as no-one [of us] has come to Greenland-sea.

En þó halda þeir nú í haf þegar þeir voru búnir og sigldu þrjá daga þar
But then kept they now in sea when they were ready and sailed (they) three days there

til er landið var vatnað en þá tók af byrina og lagði á norrænur og þokur
(un)til landThe was water, but there took off wawesThe and laid to North (winds) and fogs

og vissu þeir eigi hvert að þeir fóru og skipti það mörgum dægrum.
and knew they not where that they went and shifted (=went on like that) that many days.

Eftir það sáu þeir sól og máttu þá deila áttir,
After that saw they sun and could they could then part (get) their bearings

vinda nú segl og sigla þetta dægur
wind now sail (=set sails) and sail this day

áður þeir sáu land og ræddu um með sér hvað landi þetta mun vera
before they saw land and asked-themselves about what land this might be

en Bjarni kveðst hyggja að það mundi eigi Grænland.
but Bjarni said believe at that might not (be) Greenland

Þeir spyrja hvort hann vill sigla að þessu landi eða eigi.
They asked him whether he would sail to this land or not

"Það er mitt ráð að sigla í nánd við landið."
"that is my advice to sail (only) in proximity with landThat

Og svo gera þeir og sáu það brátt að landið var ófjöllótt og skógi vaxið
And so did they and saw they soon that landThe was hilly and forests grew

og smár hæðir á landinu og létu landið á bakborða og létu skaut horfa á land.
and small hills on landThe, and let (they) land to larboard and let 'shoot' (launch, here loose) sight to land.

Síðan sigla þeir tvö dægur áður þeir sáu land annað.
Afterwards sailed they two days before they saw land another.

Þeir spyrja hvort Bjarni ætlaði það enn Grænland.
They asked whether Bjarni thought that yet Greenland.

Hann kvaðst eigi heldur ætla þetta Grænland
He said not either think this (be) Greenland

en hið fyrra "því að jöklar eru mjög miklir sagðir á Grænlandi"
(more) than (the) previous "because that glaciers are much bigger said at Greenland"

Þeir nálguðust brátt þetta land og sáu það vera slétt land og viði vaxið.
They got-near quickly this land and saw this be flat land and wood grown

Þá tók af byr fyrir þeim.
Then took off wind for them (-> windstill).

Þá ræddu hásetar það að þeim þótti það ráð að taka það land
Then advised sailors that them seemed that (good) advice (to) take that land

en Bjarni vill það eigi. Þeir þóttust bæði þurfa við og vatn.
but Bjarni would that not. They thought both lack wood and water,

"Að öngu eruð þér því óbirgir" segir Bjarni
"at none are you thereof in-need", said Bjarne

en þó fékk hann af því nokkuð ámæli af hásetum sínum.
but though got he for that some grumpling from sailors his.

Hann bað þá vinda segl og svo var gert og settu framstafn frá landi
He asked then wind (=set) sail and so was done and set (they) stern from land

og sigla í haf útsynningsbyr þrjú dægur og sáu þá landið þriðja.
and sailed in sea (with) southwestwind three days and saw (they) then landThe third.

En það land var hátt og fjöllótt og jökull á.
But that land was high and mountainous and glaciers on.

Þeir spyrja þá ef Bjarni vildi að landi láta þar en hann kvaðst eigi það vilja
They asked then if Bjarni would to land permit there, but he declared not that want

"því að mér líst þetta land ógagnvænlegt."
Because to me seems this land unusefull

Nú lögðu þeir eigi segl sitt, halda með landinu fram og sáu að það var eyland,
Now lowered their not (even) sail their, kept along landThe forwards and saw that was island

settu enn stafn við því landi og héldu í haf hinn sama byr.
set yet stern with that land and held in sea that same wind

En veður óx í hönd og bað Bjarni þá svipta og eigi sigla meira
But weather grew in hand and asked then Bjarni pull (reef (sail)) and not sail more

en bæði dygði vel skipi þeirra og reiða,
than both be-good both ship their and tackle,

sigldu nú fjögur dægur. Þá sáu þeir land hið fjórða.
sailed now four days. Then saw they land the fourth

Þá spurðu þeir Bjarna hvort hann ætlaði þetta vera Grænland eða eigi.
Then asked they Bjarni whether he thought this might-be Greenland or not.

Bjarni svarar: "Þetta er líkast því er mér er sagt frá Grænlandi
Bjarni answers: "This is ressembling-most that what me said (was) about Greenland

og hér munum vér að landi halda."
and here can we to-land hold

Svo gera þeir og taka land undir einhverju nesi að kveldi dags
So did they and took land under some cape at evening day's (=that evening)

og var þar bátur á nesinu. En þar bjó Herjúlfur faðir Bjarna á því nesi
and was there boat at cape. But there lived Herjulf father Bjarni's at that cape

og af því hefir nesið nafn tekið og er síðan kallað Herjúlfsnes.
and from that has capeThe taken name and is afterwards called HerjulfsCape

Fór Bjarni nú til föður síns og hættir nú siglingu
Went now Bjarni to father his and stops now sailing

og er með föður sínum meðan Herjúlfur lifði.
and is with father his while Herjulf lived.

Og síðan bjó hann þar eftir föður sinn.
And afterwards lived he there after father his.

Það er nú þessu næst að Bjarni Herjúlfsson kom utan af Grænlandi á fund Eiríks jarls
That is now that next that Bjarni Herjulfsson came out from Greenland to meeting Erik's earl (=meeting with earl Erik)

og tók jarl við honum vel. Sagði Bjarni frá ferðum sínum er hann hafði lönd séð
and took earl with him well. Said Bjarni about travel his when he had land seen

og þótti mönnum hann verið hafa óforvitinn er hann hafði ekki að segja af þeim löndum
and thought menThe he had been out-of-mind when he had not (anything) to tell about those lands

og fékk hann af því nokkuð ámæli.
and got he (because) of that some remarks.




Edited by Iversen on 29 July 2009 at 11:17am

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Iversen
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 Message 1155 of 3959
29 July 2009 at 11:54am | IP Logged 
Addendum to the posts abour the discovery of America: the vikings are reputed to have used a socalled "sunstone" for navigation purposes (though Bjarni H. apparently didn't possess one). You can read more about this fascinating subject here.

It is fun to make hyperliteral translations, and I have even thought about making a separate log thread containing only such translations. But for now I'll just continue to put them into this bulging thread - time will tell if there is a limit to how big threads can be ...

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Fasulye
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 Message 1156 of 3959
29 July 2009 at 12:12pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
It is fun to make hyperliteral translations, and I have even thought about making a separate log thread containing only such translations. But for now I'll just continue to put them into this bulging thread - time will tell if there is a limit to how big threads can be ...


Iversen, your log is steadily heading towards 200,000 views ...

I have also discovered the fun of making hyperliteral translations especially those from Turkish into English or Dutch. It's not much work making them, so I won't get headaches so easily. As far as I have time and ideas of writing essays in Turkish I promise to make more hyperliterals. I especially enjoy reading your hyperliterals of languages which I can unterstand partially such as Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Portuguese or Catalan.

Fasulye

Edited by Fasulye on 29 July 2009 at 12:15pm

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Iversen
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 Message 1157 of 3959
29 July 2009 at 1:31pm | IP Logged 
Prepare for more hyperliterals!

Let's have one based on the excellent collections of www.heimskringla.no, and just for fun I'll take a triple one with a version in Old Gutnic and a modern Swedish translation (good for me, because I don't have an 'Old Gotlandish' dictionary):

Cronica Guthilandorum
Gutasagaen … The history of Gotland

Gutland hitti fyrsti mathr than sum thieluar hit
Gotland fann först en man, som hette Tjälvar.
Gotland [nb: object] found first a man called Tjalfe [subject]

Tha war gutland so eluist at thet daghum sanc Oc natum war uppj.
Då var Gotland så förtrollat, att det om dagarna sjönk och om nätterna stod uppe.
Then was Gotland so bewitched that it in-days sank and in-nights was up.

En thann mathr quam fyrsti eldi a land Oc sithan sanc thet aldri.
Men denne man bar först eld till landet, och sedan sjönk det aldrig.
But this man carried as (the) first fire to (the) land, and since sank it never.

Thissi thieluar hafthi ann sun sum hit hafthi. En haftha cuna hit huita stierna
Denne Tjälvar hade en son, som hette Havde, Och Havdes hustru hette Vitstjärna.
This Tjalfe had a son that was-called Had. And Had's wife was-called Whitestar

Thaun tu bygthu fyrsti a gutlandi. Fyrstu nat sum thaun saman suafu tha droymdi hennj draumbr.
Dessa två voro de första, som bodde på Gotland. Första natten, som de sovo tillsammans, drömde hon en dröm.
These two built (as the) first on Gotland. First night that they together slept then dreamt she dream.

So sum thrir ormar warin slungnir saman j barmj hennar Oc thytti hennj sum thair scrithin yr barmi hennar.
Det var som om tre ormar voro slingrade samman i hennes barm, och det tycktes henne, som om de kröpo ut ur hennes barm.
.. so as (if) three snakes were wrung together in bosom her and seemed to-her as they crept out (of) bosom her.

Thinna draum segthi han firi hastha bonda sinum hann riath dravm thinna so.
Denna dröm förtaide hon för Havde, sin man. Han uttydde den så:
This dream told she for (=to) Had, (hus)band her, .. he interpreted dream this so:

Alt ir baugum bundit bo land al thitta wartha oc faum thria syni aiga.
Allt är bundet i ringar. Bebyggt land skall detta varda, och vi skola få tre söner.
All is bound in rings. Built abode land all this shall-become and get-we three sons have (=we will have 3 sons)
(…)

thair sciptu sithan gutlandi i thria thrithiunga. So at graipr thann elzti laut northasta thrithiung
De skiftade sedan Gotland i tre tredingar, så att Graip, den äldste, fick nordligaste tredingen,
They divided since Gotland in three threeparts. So that Grip the oldest got Northernmost third,

oc guti mithal thrithiung En gunfiaun thann yngsti laut sunnarsta
Gute den mellersta och Gunnfjaun, den yngste, den sydligaste.
and Gute middle third and Gunfinn the youngest got Southernmost.

Sithan af thissum thrim aucathis fulc j gutlandi som mikit um langan tima at land elptj thaim ai alla fytha
Från dessa tre förökades sedan folket på Gotland så mycket under en lång tid, att landet ej förmådde föda dem alla.
From these three grew since people on Gotland so much for (a) long time that land could-not them all feed

Tha lutathu thair bort af landi huert thrithia thiauth so at alt sculdu thair aiga oc mith sir bort hafa sum thair vfan iorthar attu.
Då lottade de bort från landet var tredje man, så att de fingo behålla och föra bort med sig allt som de ägde ovan jord.
Then drew-lots they from land every third man so that all should they have and with them away have (=take) that they had above earth.

Sithan wildu thair nauthugir bort fara men foru innan thors borg Oc bygthus thar firir.
Sedan ville de ogärna fara bort, utan foro till Torsborg och slogo sig ned där
Since would they unwillingly away go, but went within (=to) Thors-castle and built there for.

Sithan wildi ai land thaim thula vtan racu thaim bort thethan
Sedan ville landet icke tåla dem, utan de drevo bort dem därifrån
SInce would not land them tolerate without (=but) drove them away therefrom

Sithan foru thair borth i faroyna Oc bygthus thar
Sedan foro de bort till Fårön och slogo sig ned där
Since went they away to "Sheep-island"* and built there   (* near Gotland, not the islands in the Atlantic)

firir thar gatu thair ai sic vppi haldit Vtan foru j aina oy withr aistland sum haitir dagaithi.
Där kunde de icke uppehålla sig utan foro till en ö vid Estland, som heter Dagö,
(for) there could they not themselves up-hold, but went to one island with (=near) Estland that is-called Dagø (=Day-island)

Oc bygthus thar firir Oc gierthu burg aina sum enn synis
och slogo sig ned där och byggde en borg, som ännu synes.
and built there for (=settled there) and made castle that still seen-is

thar gatu thair oc ai sic haldit. Vtan foru vpp at watnj thi sum haitir dyna
Där kunde de icke heller uppehålla sig utan foro uppför en flod, som heter Dyna
There could they also not themselves hold (=stay), but went up along water that is called Dvina

Oc vpp ginum ryza land so fierri foru thair at thair quamu til griclanz
och upp genom Ryssland. Så långt foro de, att de kommo till Grekland
And up through Rusland so far went they, that they came to Greece

thar baddus thair byggias firir af grica kunungi
Där bådo de grekernas konung att få bo i ny och nedan.
There asked they built for (=settle) from Greek king

(….)

So bygthus thair thar firir. oc enn byggia oc enn hafa thair sumt af waru mali
Så bodde de där och bo där ännu, och ännu hava de något av vårt språk.
So built they there for (=lived there) and yet built, and still have they there some of our language.

There, that's a true story! It has been surmised that the Gothic tribes started their wanderings from Gotland, which can be hard to prove. But it is a proven fact that the Goths did pass through Russia before they civilized chaotic places like Italy and Spain. And there were indeed Gothic-speaking tribes in the Crimea right up to around 1600, - the last people to speak anything from the Eastern branch of the Germanic languages.


Edited by Iversen on 29 July 2009 at 4:05pm

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Fasulye
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 Message 1158 of 3959
29 July 2009 at 1:38pm | IP Logged 
What a boring topic of the text, but linguistically I can see a close relationship between the two languages Old Norse and Swedish.

Fasulye
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Iversen
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 Message 1159 of 3959
29 July 2009 at 1:49pm | IP Logged 
It is not old Norse, but Old Gutnic - which is halfway a Gothic language (though officially belonging to the Northern Germanic Group). And the perspective is clear if you know your history. The Gothic tribes split up somewhere along the road, and for a time (around 500-600) they totally dominated the Mediterranean part of Europe. The Ostrogothic king Theoderic in fact ruled Italy after the Roman empire had collapsed, and the Western Gothic kingdoms ruled most of the Iberian peninsula before the Arabs came. So if all this started on Gotland - which hasn't been proved - then this saga about Jeff Lindquist's home island in the Baltic Sea isn't just some murky old tale devoid of interest. It is also quite interesting that the author knew about the Crimean Goths - they were unknown to science until around 1600, when a diplomat with an interest in languages met someone from Crimea at the Osmannic court.

I forgot to mention that this saga was written well before 1300, maybe around 1220. At that time the Byzantian empire was still alive and kicking (in spite of the Venezian intermezzo), and the reference to the Greek king is of course a reference to the Byzantian emperor in Constantinople. Btw. the Norse people called Constantinople "Miklagardur" (the big town), and many vikings - "væringerne" - served there.


Edited by Iversen on 29 July 2009 at 2:46pm

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Fasulye
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 Message 1160 of 3959
29 July 2009 at 1:56pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
It is not old Norse, but Old Gutnic - which is halfway a Gothic language. And the perspective is clear if you know your history: the Gothic tribes split up somewhere along the road. The Ostrogothic king Theoderic in fact ruled Italy after the Roman empire had collapsed, and the Western Gothic kingdoms ruled most of the Iberian peninsula before the Arabs came. So if all this started on Gotland then this saga about Jeff Lindquist's home island isn't just some murky old tale devoid of interest. It is also quite interesting that te author knew about the Crimean Goths..


"Old Gutnic" = What's that in German? = Alt Gothisch?

I don't have any background knowledge about this period of history, just zero. I am so familar with this topic as a green Marswoman!!!

Fasulye


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