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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 1585 of 3959
20 December 2009 at 3:28pm | IP Logged 
Klimakonferencen var dømt til fiasko fra starten,
Climate conferenceThe was doomed to Italian-boottle (=failure) from beginningTHE

og som ventet fusede den ud som en våd kineser.
and as expected it fizzled out like a wet Chinese (=fire-cracker).

Jeg fatter ikke at nogen stadig tror at noget som helst arrangement i FN-regi
I grasp not that anybody still believes that any-as-preferably (=any...-at-all) arrangement in UN-aegis

kan føre til noget som helst. Denne konference har i alt fald gjort mere skade end gavn.
can lead to anything-as-preferably (=anything-at-all) has in all case done more damage than benefit.

Hvis man vil have fremskridt på sådan et område, nytter det ikke noget at give bagtroppen vetoret.
If man wants have progress on such an area, useful-be it not anything to give rearpartyThe veto-right.

Og lad os så overgå til et mere påtrængende emne: tyske komponister fra den tidlige barokperiode.
And let os then over-go to a more urgent subject: German composers from the early baroque period.

GER: Wie können vielleicht mit unserer Welt unzufrieden sein, aber die Leute die im Deutschen Raum während der Dreißigjährige Krieg von 1618 bis 1648 lebten hatten wirklich Grund darüber zu klagen! Nicht nur hatten die Mächte Europas anscheinend beschlossen ganz Deutschland als Schlachtfield zu benützen, aber dazu kam noch ein klimatisches Problem: dies war im Mitten der 'kleinen Eiszeit', wo die Flüssen jedes Winter zugefroren und die Ernteerträge im Herbst systematisch erbärmlich waren. Trotzdem wurde Musik komponiert. Darunter findet man auch Musik mit eine für solch harte Zeiten erstaunliche innere Ruhe, wie die Instrumentalsuiten von Johann Hermann Schein, Samuel Scheidt oder Heinrich Rosenmüller. Diese Ruhe ist paradoxalerweise auch vorhanden in der damalige Tanzmusik (vielleicht weil die Tänzer wegen ihrer großen Magen und schwere Kostümen sich nicht schnell bewegen konnten).

Die scharfen Klängen waren eher beliebt im 16. Jahrhundert. Das damalige Instrumentarium wurde mit akribischer Akkuratesse von Michael Praetorius beschrieben und mit kurze Beispielsätze illustriert in seinem monumentalwerk Terpsichore. Höre z.B. die Blockflöten, Krummhörner, Rankette, Sordunen, Cornetten und Schlagwerkinstrument in dieser zwei Tänze. Ich werde vermutlich mehr darüber später schreiben (vielleicht kann ich das Originaltext von Praetorius irgendwo finden). Aber für heute werde ich mich mit einem Hinweis auf einem Werk som Flämischen Herausgeber/Komponist Tielman Susato begnügen: das unübertroffene Meisterwerk aus dem 16. Jahrhundert "Het Derde Musycke Boexcken" (besonders des erste Stück). Leider weiß ich nicht, was vom Buch 1 und 2 geworden ist. Aber laute und schrille Töne sind gewiß nicht unserer Zeit verbehalten!

---

After the dismal end of the UN climate conference I went back to a time where people in Europe REALLY had something to complain about. In the early 17. century the 30 years war raged in Germany and other parts of Europe, and on top of that it was in the middle of the 'Small Ice age', where all rivers were frozen every winter, and the harvests were miserable. By the way it was also a busy time for witch hunters and other kinds of religious fanatics. Yet the German composers from this period wrote music with an unsurpassed inner calm, as evidenced by the pieces of people like Johann Hermann Schein, Samuel Scheidt and Heinrich Rosenmüller. This generation of composers have almost been forgotten, which is a pity. In the preceding 16. century the emphasis was inventing new characteristic and often loud instruments, and they were described in acribic detail by the musicologist and composer Michael Praetorius in a big book called Terpsichore (after the Greek muse in charge of music). If you want to hear the blessed sound of crumhorns then try the section midway through this Youtube-clip. I may write some more about the weird instruments of this period, but I would prefer to find the original text of Praetorius first.


Edited by Iversen on 20 December 2009 at 4:29pm

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Hobbema
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 Message 1586 of 3959
20 December 2009 at 10:21pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
After the dismal end of the UN climate conference I went back to a time where people in Europe REALLY had something to complain about....
....This generation of composers have almost been forgotten, which is a pity...


That time in history would have been difficult indeed. The influence of language and culture on music has come up before in this log! I wonder if perhaps in the presence of real hardship people find comfort in music with that much precision, order, and structure.

And I wonder that in the absence of real hardships if we ourselves manufacture our own. Those in the climate conference using their political soapboxes to try to convince the world that disaster is imminent and furthering their own political agendas are blatant opportunists, as well as those nations looking to the United States for “reparations” for their problems.

As an engineer and amateur thermodynamicist I find the case for a changing climate undeniable. And that it’s caused by human factors highly probable. But international political conferences are pointless, expensive, and doomed to failure. Maybe we are better off learning the lesson that bad things are going to happen if we live wastefully and treating the world as a toilet. (I say “we”, fully aware that this forum is international in membership, and refusing to take part in any of the across-the-Atlantic bickering that I seem to have stumbled across so much lately on this site). Maybe we would all be better off if we looked at the science and used that as motivation to conserve more, live simply, and resolved to leave the earth a better place than when we came into it.

As far as early musical instruments go, I have seen an excellent collection of ancient instruments in the music department at the University of Central Missouri, and when I look at the forms of the baroque violin and viola de gamba, the fingerings look awkward to my (mostly uneducated) eyes, and I think it must have been difficult to make music sound good with instruments like that.   Early Baroque music (such as written by J.H. Schein) I don’t think is yet endangered, it still has small but dedicated “Collegium Musicum” groups devoted to it across the country, and I would suspect in Europe as well.

I find myself remembering the sakbut, if for no other reason than someone found it necessary to call it a “sakbut”. Perhaps an early musician with a sense of humor.

____________________
Em todo caso, porque este é um forum de linguagem, eu vou usar este oportunidade por
In every case, because this is a forum of language, I am going to use this opportunity

roubar seu hyperliteral formato tradução fazer um outro comentário. Nós falamos
steal your hyperliteral format translation to make another comment. We speak

sobre influéncias sobre a cultura e a música. No bosque tropical Brasileira, é
about influences about the culture and the music. In the forest rain Brazilian, it is

às vezes comparada a um deserto, porque a comida é tanto difícil encontrar, e para o
sometimes compared to a desert because the food is so much difficult to find, and for

the índios ocupa tanto tempo durante o dia que eles têm pouco tempo
indians it occupies so much time during the day that they have little time

para mais nada
for more nothing.

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Iversen
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 Message 1587 of 3959
21 December 2009 at 11:26am | IP Logged 
I have seen several fine collections of old instruments, though not the one Hobbema mentions. Old string instruments were in some respects more difficult to play than the modern ones, but the music of those times was of course designed to be played on those instruments. For instance the fingerboard on a common violin was shorter, and consequently extremely high notes weren't asked for (though I have seen somewhere that P.Locatelli asked for some of those notes in his music). On the other hand a piece like the Devil's Trill Sonata by Tartini was certainly a virtusoso showpiece, using double trills and other funny effects, and the wellknown "Four Seasons" by Vivaldi are also anything but easy. The solo sonatas and suites for violin and cello by Bach (which continue a tradition that goes back at least to Heinrich Isaac Franz von Biber) may not contain extremely high notes, but they compensate by being fundamentally polyphonic, using lots of triple or even quadruple chords to carry the different voices. I would still rate the violin music written from Paganini and onwards as technically more demanding, but the violin players of the baroque were also good.

The complicated key systems of the modern woodwind weren't perfected until the early 19. century (for instance Theobald Böhm basically reinvented the key system of the flute). But paradoxally the less complicated systems existing before weren't easier to play, as intonation problems had to be dealt with by 'squeaking' any blue notes with the lips. Nevertheless the solo music played even by the most famous flute virtuosos of the 18. century (people like Quantz) looks like child's play compared to the parts written for the orchestral flutes in music from the late Romantic period, - as evidenced by the 2. suite from Daphnis et Chloë by Ravel.

This situation was even more pronounced with the brass instruments (which in the early Baroque included one instrument made of wood, the cornett (German: Zink)). Apart from the sackbut they only consisted of a long metal tube with a mouth piece at one end and a flare at the other. But paradoxally some of the most accomplished brass players ever lived in the late baroque period: they specialized in producing extremely high overtones on their simple horns and trompets, and because these overtones lie close to each other they were able to play real melodies. Quite a lot of 'clarino' music written for these amazing virtuosos has been preserved, including the famous 2. Brandenburg Concerto by J.S. Bach. In this recording the trumpet is the only instrument that isn't a copy of the orginal, - it has got ventils, which means that you can use an instrument with a fundamental tone that is at least one octave higher than the one used by Johann Ludwig Schreiber, the musician at Cöthen for whom the piece was intended.


Edited by Iversen on 21 December 2009 at 2:59pm

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Hobbema
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 Message 1588 of 3959
21 December 2009 at 8:41pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
....But paradoxally the less complicated systems existing before weren't easier to play, as intonation problems had to be dealt with by 'squeaking' any blue notes with the lips.


I wonder how our western sense of intonation developed? I know a little about the history of music, but how did it come to be that for us a major triad is nice to listen to, why is dissonance (generally) considered unpleasant, and for instance, why was the diminished 5th was considered the “Diabolus Musica”?

J.S. Bach’s well-tempered tuning was a milestone that marked a step away from the meantone tuning used during that time. Before that you had to have a different tuning for every key you played in.   Otherwise for any particular tuning, accidentals or another key would sound bad. So why do we universally find one tuning “good”, and another tuning “bad”.

I say the word “universally”, but Chinese 12 Lyu tuning is different from ours, and there are other tuning systems as well, so how does it come to be that we like what we like? Period critics weren’t kind to the American composer Charles Ives when he wrote piano pieces with quarter tone tuning. Actually, I think I had heard that his father introduced him to that, and had in fact invented a piano tuned in quarter tone intervals.

Iversen wrote:
...the less complicated systems existing before weren't easier to play, as intonation problems had to be dealt with by 'squeaking' any blue notes with the lips.



Their accomplishments are even more remarkable when you consider that their science couldn’t have been that exact back then, which means the natural tuning of their instruments probably was not that precise, which means it all had to have been controlled by embouchure.

Por: Um outro coisa que eu acho interessante, enquanto nós estamos falando sobre instrumentos musicais. O que faz um violino Stradivarius soa lindo? Algumas pessoas pensam que é a madeira, mas outras pensam é a cola, mas outras pensam é verniz. Ninguém sabe.   É verdade, aqueles artesãos como Stradivari e Amati foram muito talentoso. Eles dizem que os violinos de Stradivarius agora são mais velho, e que os violinos estamos começando perder o qualidade de o som deles. Seria melhor ter este discussão em Italiano, mas eu sei só algums Português, um outro linguagem românica.


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Iversen
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 Message 1589 of 3959
22 December 2009 at 1:52am | IP Logged 
IT: Non ho mai sentito che i violini antichi che ancora sono in uso avrebbero perso la loro qualità musicale negli ultimi annii. Vi è però un sacco di Stradivari ed Amati e Guarnieri nei musei e nelle collezioni private, dove non c'è nessuno per giocare su di loro, e tra i musicisti è un assunto generale che questo allo lungo sia dannosa per il suono di questi strumenti. Inoltre, ci sono ben pochi i vecchi strumenti che restano nel loro stato originario: quasi su tutte i vecchi violini è stata estesa la tastiera e cambiato l'angolo tra il collo e il corpo - ma noi troviamo nondimeno che abbiano un buon suono, anche con garanzia non suonano come quando hanno lasciato le botteghe dei grandi maestri.

IT: J.S: Bach hat sein "Wohltemperiertes Clavier" für ein Spezialinstrument geschrieben, wo alle Halbtonintervalle gleich groß sind. Wenn ein guter Musiker 'rein' spielt, müssen alle Kvinten und alle Oktaven auch rein sein, i.e. mathematisch eksakte Grössenverhältnisse horchen. Teoretisch sollte ein Anzahl Oktaven und ein Anzahl Kvinten irgendwann denselben Ton treffen, aber in der Tat trifft dieß nicht ganz zu - es gibt das sogenannte 'Komma'. Tasteninstrumente sind heute alle 'Wohltemperiert' gestimmt, weil sonst bestimmte Tonarten ganz unrein wären. Gute Streicher versuchen aber dieses Faktum zu vertouschen, weil sie ihren Tönen in Mikrointervallen anpassen können, und darum haben sie keinen Grund - außer das zusammenspeil mit den Tasteninstrumenten - immer Falsch zu spielen. Ihre Instrumente werden aber 'wohletemperiert' gestimmt, i.e. mit etwas zu großen Kvinten - sonst wäre es nicht möglich mit ein Klavier zusammen zu spielen

-------

I hadn't heard that the Stradivaris and other old instrument were losing their tone, - but this may be the case for those that just are being kept in museums and private collections. It is a common assumption among musicians that an instrument loses its timbre if nobody plays on it (though it would be nice to have a proof for this idea). However it is worth remembering that extremely few of the old masterviolins look and sound as they did when they left the workstops of the masters. Almost all old instruments have had their fingerboard made longer and the angle between the neck and the body has also been changed. So when we talk about the sound of a Stradivarius or Amati or Guarnerius we aren't really referring to the original sound, but to the sound that came after the changes.

Bach wrote his Welltempered Piano for a new instrument where all halftones were exactly the same size. This was done to make it possible to use all keys, and Bach proved that this was indeed possible by using them all in this work. But in reality a number of octaves and a number of quints NEVER add up to exactly the same tone. For this reason a good string player tends to adjust the interval sizes slightly depending on the key - but this becomes a problem if there is a keyboard player around who cannot adjust in the same way. By the way, when you tune a string instrument you normally use a 'tempered' tuning, i.e. you make the tonal distance between the strings on a violin or cello slightly larger than a pure quint - otherwise you couldn't play together with a piano.   

-----

By the way, I have spend some time this evening on Russian prepositions. My problem was not really which case to use (even though I still make errors in this respect), - I was more interested in learning more about which preposition to use. I have an old grammar written by H.C.Sørensen, where there are several example phrases with different prepositions. Among the examples for 'b' ('bo') I would like to mention a few:

Дом в один этаж: Hus i/med een etage (house with one floor)
брюки в полоску: Bukser med striebr (trousers with tripes)
дверь в комнату: Dør til værelse (door to room)
игра в шахматы: skakspil (chess game)

Already these three examples show that the Danish or English prepositions simply don't cover the same 'area' as the Russian ones, here 'в', and this has consequences for the way such a preposition should be learnt. It can't be a secret that I use wordlists to add to my vocabulary, but I have always added that certain very common word aren't really well suite for wordlists. Instead lists of sentence fragments illustrating the different shades of meaning seem to be a useful tool. In fact my Russian-Danish Gyldendal dictionary contains around 50 different examples with 'в', subdivided after case and semantic group, -for instance "Accusative.. 1) direction: выйти бо двор: gå ud i gården (go into the courtyeard)". I prefer these concise chunks to complete sentences with a lot of irrelevant content, - my "Russisk Grammatik" by Annie Christensen uses full sentences, sometimes from literature, and I find that it not only is a waste of space, but also has a obfuscating effect on me (I am of course squarely against the socalled 'sentence method'). So to learn a very common and sprawling word like 'в' the best tools for learning it is at least one clear and concise grammar with examples, a good dictionary and a sheet of paper and a pen for noting a lot of examples down from genuine materials.    



Edited by Iversen on 22 December 2009 at 8:37pm

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Iversen
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 Message 1590 of 3959
22 December 2009 at 2:29am | IP Logged 
22 December 2009 at 1:52am | IP Logged
[MICROTAG]

IT: Non ho mai sentito che i violini antichi che ancora sono in uso avessero perso la loro qualità musicale negli ultimi annii. Vi è però un sacco di Stradivari ed Amati e Guarnieri nei musei e nelle collezioni private, dove non c'è nessuno per giocare su di loro, e tra i musicisti è un assunto generale che questo allo lungo sia dannosa per il suono di questi strumenti. Inoltre, ci sono ben pochi i vecchi strumenti che restano nel loro stato originario: quasi su tutte i vecchi violini è stata estesa la tastiera e cambiato l'angolo tra il collo e il corpo - ma noi troviamo nondimeno che abbiano un buon suono, anche con garanzia non suonano come quando hanno lasciato le botteghe dei grandi maestri.

IT: J.S: Bach hat sein "Wohltemperiertes Clavier" für ein Spezialinstrument geschrieben, wo alle Halbtonintervalle gleich groß sind. Wenn ein guter Musiker 'rein' spielt, müssen alle Kvinten und alle Oktaven auch rein sein, i.e. mathematisch eksakte Grössenverhältnisse horchen. Teoretisch sollte ein Anzahl Oktaven und ein Anzahl Kvinten irgendwann denselben Ton treffen, aber in der Tat trifft dieß nicht ganz zu - es gibt das sogenannte 'Komma'. Tasteninstrumente sind heute alle 'Wohltemperiert' gestimmt, weil sonst bestimmte Tonarten ganz unrein wären. Gute Streicher versuchen aber dieses Faktum zu vertouschen, weil sie ihren Tönen in Mikrointervallen anpassen können, und darum haben sie keinen Grund - außer das zusammenspeil mit den Tasteninstrumenten - immer Falsch zu spielen. Ihre Instrumente werden aber 'wohletemperiert' gestimmt, i.e. mit etwas zu großen Kvinten - sonst wäre es nicht möglich mit ein Klavier zusammen zu spielen

-------

I hadn't heard that the Stradivaris and other old instrument were losing their tone, - but this may be the case for those that just are being kept in Museums and private collections. It as a common assumption among musicians that an instrument loses its timbre if nobody plays on it (though it would be nice to have a proof for this idea). However it is worth remembering that extremely few of the old masterviolins look and sound as they did when they left the workstops of the masters. Almost all old instruments have had their fingerboard made longer and the angle between the neck and the body has also been changed. So when we talk about the sound of a Stradivarius or Amati or Guarnerius we aren't really referring to the original sound, but to the sound that came after the changes.

Bach wrote his Welltempered Piano for a new instrument where all halftones were exactly the same size. This was done to make it possible to use all keys, and Bach proved that this was indeed possible by using them all in this work. But in reality a number of octaves and a number of quints NEVER add up to exactly the same tone. For this reason a good string player tends to adjust the interval sizes slightly depending on the key - but this becomes a problem if there is a keyboard player around who cannot adjust in the same way. By the way, when you tune a string instrument you normally use a 'tempered' tuning, i.e. you make the tonal distance between the strings on a violin or cello slightly larger than a pure quint - otherwise you couldn't play together with a piano.   

-----

By the way, I have spend some time this evening on Russian prepositions. My problem was not really which case to use (even though I still make errors in this respect), - I was more insteresting in learning more about which preposition to use. I have an old grammar written by H.C.Sørensen, where there are a lot of sample phrases with different prepositions. Among the examples for 'b' ('bo') I would like to mention a few:

Дом в один этаж: Hus i/med een etage (house with one floor)
брюки в полоску: Bukser med striebr (trousers with tripes)
дверь в комнату: Dør til værelse (door to room)
игра в шахматы: skakspil (chess game)

Even these few examples show that the Danish or English prepositions simply don't cover the same 'area' as the Russian ones, here 'в', and this has consequences for the way such a preposition should be learnt. It can't be a secret that I use wordlists to add to my vocabulary, but I have always added that certain very common word aren't really well suite for wordlists. Instead lists of sentence fragments illustrating the different shades of meaning seem to be a useful tool. For more examples I can use my Russian-Danish Gyldendal dictionary, which contains around 50 different examples with 'в', subdivided after case and semantic group, -for instance "Accusative.. 1) direction: выйти бо двор: gå ud i gården (go into the courtyeard)". I prefer these concise chunks to complete sentences with a lot of irrelevant content, - my otherwise delightful "Russisk Grammatik" by Annie Christensen uses full sentences, sometimes from literature, and I find that it not only is a waste of space, but also serves to confuse me (I am consequently also squarely against the socalled 'sentence method'). So to learn a very common and sprawling word like 'в' the best tools for learning it is at least one clear and concise grammar with examples, a good dictionary and a sheet of paper and a pen for noting a lot of examples down from genuine materials.    


Edited by Iversen on 22 December 2009 at 8:36pm

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Hobbema
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 Message 1591 of 3959
22 December 2009 at 4:49pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
...So when we talk about the sound of a Stradivarius or Amati or Guarnerius we aren't really referring to the original sound, but to the sound that came after the changes.


I seem to remember reading something about a CT scan done on Stradivari violins, and someone was able to calculate that the wood was extremely dense. Parts of the instrument being made of Alpine spruce, and in a time where Europe was going through an unusually cold period (!!! – reference your earlier post about the little ice age in Europe?) the growth ring pattern produced unusually dense wood. But maybe we should just accept the fact that those old masters were true artisans as well as technicians, and there’s no magic ingredient that produced some really great instruments.

Iversen wrote:
...By the way, when you tune a string instrument you normally use a 'tempered' tuning, i.e. you make the tonal distance between the strings on a violin or cello slightly larger than a pure quint - otherwise you couldn't play together with a piano.


One of the things we splurge on every year is season tickets to a Master Pianists concert series. We’ve heard some really great music, but some of these pianists travel with their own tuners. The piano is tuned immediately before the concert, and during intermission (if they don’t close the curtain) the tuner walks out onstage and re-tunes before the second half. And he always does it by ear, never with a machine.   There is perfect pitch that some people have, where they can discriminate relationships between notes to a degree of precision far beyond the norm, and there is perfect pitch where an even smaller subset of people are able to hear a perfect A=440.

POR: Uma coisa nós compramos todos os anos é bilhetes para uma serié de concertos. Este concertos se chamam “Master Pianists”. Nós ouvimos alguma música muito bom, e algum pianistas viajar com os seus afinadores. O piano é afinado immediatamente antes de concerto, e durante o intervalo. Então, o afinador afina o piano antes de segundo semestre. Ele sempre faz de ouvido, nunco com uma máquina.

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 Message 1592 of 3959
22 December 2009 at 8:40pm | IP Logged 
.. but they still tune that piano according to the tempered tuning, where some intervals are slightly wrong. That's part of the game, and a piano tuned the natural way would sound as if it was out of tune to us - even when playing in its best keys.

Έχει συμβεί στο παρελθόν, και τώρα συνέβη και πάλι: Ήταν απασχολημένος με όλα τα είδη των παράξενα πράγματα, έτσι δεν έχω χρόνο να γράψω πολλά εδώ. Μεταξύ έχω αλλάξει τη σειρά των προγραμμάτων στην τηλεόραση μου, έτσι ώστε όλοι οι ηλίθιοι προγραμμάτων έρχονται τώρα τελευταία στην σειρά των κανάλιων, ενώ τα λίγα προγράμματα που βλέπω, να δούμε συλλέγονται κατά την έναρξη της σειράς των αριθμών. Σε Επιπλέον, έχω διαβάσει σε ορισμένα δίγλωσσα φυλλάδια τουριστικά, που μου δόθηκε στην ελληνική πόλη της Καστοριάς - αλλά σχεδόν νομίζω ότι θα μπορούσε να τα διαβάσει χωρις την αγγλική μετάφραση. Καστοριά βρίσκεται σε μια χερσόνησο σε μια λίμνη και είναι πολύ γραφικό, αλλά βρίσκεται σε μια γωνιά της Ελλάδα, ως τουρίστες δεν ενδιαφέρονται για πολλά.

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I have spent the evening partly on reorganizing the order of the programmes om my TV set so that the junk comes last and the few programmes I really like come in a row at the beginning. However I have also found time to read much of the content of two touristic brochures (really small booklets) which I got during my recent visit in Kastoriá, a pictoresque town on a halfinsel that stretches out into a lake. This part of Greece is not very popular among tourists, which I see as a plus.


Edited by Iversen on 23 December 2009 at 2:06am



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