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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 3105 of 3959
25 November 2012 at 3:19pm | IP Logged 
SW: Jag har tittat TV i dag, såsom "Vem vet mest" från Sverige, og denna quiz er bra för meg, eftersom frågorna oftast äro internationale - och månge av de 'svenska' frågor är lätta. Även jag vet att statsminister Per Albin Hansson var sosse - och melodi grandprix interesserar meg inte alls uansett land.

PLA: Um 11 Uhr aan dit Morgen seeg ik dat eenzige plattdüütsche Programm op NDR: Frühschoppen uut Nedersassen (worüm hett een plattdüütsch Programm een Naam op Hoogdüütsch?). Ludger Appel harr twee Gäst - een Betriebsrat uut SIAC un een Gröönkohlbuer. SIAC hett grote Probleme un de Arbeider sünd bannig hibbelig um sien Arbeit. Gröönkohl kann so groot wörr (1.80 Meter) dat man dat Tüüch as Wiehnachtboom kann bruuken. Aver Mensen kunn dat nich eten. Wi seegen even de schlimmste straat vun all Norddüütschland - in Emsland. Een 48 jarig Fro werd doodschoten aan de Trepp vön een Kerk, een Füerweermann hett een Pries in Australia winnt ('toughest firefighter' in the world), un 3000 Derten moeten een dag ahn sien Deertpleger uutkommen wegen een Bombendrauhung in Osnabrück.

I have watched TV today. Right now some guy is wandering across Death Valey and the mountain ranges there in the footsteps of of two men (Manly and Rogers) who did it long ago to save their families who were stranded at a small source in the middle of that ghastly place. It's amazing what people do to themselves in order to get on TV. Before that I have watched a Swedish quiz, and even before that the only regular program in Low German I know of - it comes once in a month so if you aren't prepared then there will be no spoken Platt that month. The guests this month were one man from a dying company and a farmer who had specialized in borecole. Maybe the fellah in Death Valley would have been happy to get some borecole, but you have to be a vegetarian, very hungry, a masochist or helplessly caught in outdated Christmas costums to eat the stuff - feed it to the animals and eat them, that's my strategy.

I have also watched Linea Verde from Italy, and for once it was a nice program with little singing in the background - but the presenter speaks like a waterfall, leaving too little time for the interviewees.

Yesterday I didn't switch on my computer, but I have an excellent excuse: I was studying. Actually I studied from 9 to 12 and again from 14 to 2 o'clock in the night, just with a few short pauses. And I got through a fair amount of languages. It would be too farfetched to go into details, so I'll just mentions a few landmarks along the way:

Greek: a string of 'front page quotes' at pro.com.gr from the time around Merkel's latest visit to Athens

Irish: a passage from an article about social internet media from www.anlionra.com    

Pause - I bought a Christmas present for my sister (after asking her about the exact definition of 'eye line remover' and an acceptable trademark for the stuff - so now she knows what she'll get, and that's the best way to give Christmas presents. Friday I saw in a free newspaper that 22 % of Danish men HATE Christmas).

Greek wordlists

Indonesian wordlists and an old printout of an article from the internet about the proper way to give orders in Indonesian

Afrikaans: an article about a mismanaged naval ship, a possible visit by Obama to 'Mianmar' and some assorted messages from readers at the homepage of Die Burger in South Africa.

Back to Greek: more wordlists, this time directly from a dictionary.

Harrius Potter and the Chamber of Secrets in Latin. I have read the whole book extensively (and with a little help from the original understood most of it) so in round two I just copied short passages and looked up words and constructions etc. in them.

On TV I watched mostly programs in English yesterday - one about some MC drivers who try to drive around the world, and now they had problems on the sinister 'Bone Road' to Magadan in Eastern Siberia, - the other about some people who had decided to row across the Pacific from Japan to San Francisco. Compared to those guys I consider myself to be relatively sane.



Edited by Iversen on 25 November 2012 at 3:20pm

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tarvos
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 Message 3106 of 3959
25 November 2012 at 5:41pm | IP Logged 
Borecole is common in mashed pots in the Netherlands: I too think the stuff is absolutely
disgusting, but people here do seem to enjoy it for whatever godless reason.
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Josquin
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 Message 3107 of 3959
25 November 2012 at 5:49pm | IP Logged 
I don't know what you're talking about. Borecole is absolutely delicious -- at least for us North Germans! :)
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Iversen
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 Message 3108 of 3959
26 November 2012 at 12:17am | IP Logged 
Josquin can have my part of all the borecole in this world - I won't miss it.

Here in Denmark the stuff is cooked to a thick green brew, but the farmer in the program had at least the decency to chop the plants into tiny fragments and put them into a bowl with other fragmented vegetables. In small amounts chopped vegetables can be eaten as an accessory to some real food or in a burger - but not alone. Mashed and cooked cole of any kind is an abomination.

SP: En el año 1995 he caminado cuatre dias en la Ruta Maya con un grupo internacional de turistas. En el grupo había algunos vegetarianos, y después de salir de Cusco se averiguó que nuestro grupo para complazer a los vegetarianos habia llevado sólamente comida vegetariana conejo (salvo gambas de pollo para una sola comida). Esto significaba que yo tenía que caminar cuatro dias a lo largo de la Ruta Maya sin comer otra cosa que algunos plátanos con Inca Kola. Generalmente tengo nada en contra de los vegetarianos, siempre y cuando también ellos comen mi parte de las hierbas no comestibles de este mundo, pero a veces la gente olvida de que hay algunos de nosotros que están lo contrario de los vegetarianos. Por otro lado, yo era la única persona en el grupo que no tenía mal estómago durante la caminata, y yo atribuyo esto al efecto curativo de los plátanos y de la Inca Kola.

In 1995 I walked the Inca Trail with an international group of tourists (who did it in their hiking outfit with heavy boots, while I just walked along in my usual jacket, long trousers and black shoes). Before we set out our guide asked whether there where some vegetarians in the group, and half a dozen or so jumped up and declared their unsverving allegiance to that gastronomical aberration. OK, I can normally live in peace alongside vegetarians, but when we had left Cusco it turned out that our guide had chosen ONLY to have vegetables carried along with us by the porters (apart from a few paltry chicken legs for one meal) .. so I had to live on bananas and Inca cola for four days, while the rest of the group chewed sadly on their chopped cole and salad and washed it down with tepid tea. But as a small compensation for the four days of starvation I was the only one in the group who didn't get diarrhoea. Long live real food.

Edited by Iversen on 26 November 2012 at 12:53am

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mahasiswa
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 Message 3109 of 3959
26 November 2012 at 1:52am | IP Logged 
Only one mistake in your first line of Spanish, but I'll leave it up to you to spot it.

An unrelated question: I started to use your 3-column method au lieu of flashcards recently and it works
great. I'll give you a detailed report on my usage of it after December when I've done 2 weeks of intensive
Russian autodidactically...

I've also done a bit of wordlist-making from dictionaries in the past but I find it so hard to keep from
falling asleep after an hour of typing or writing out words. I wanted to know if you could clarify (in
whatever language you'd like from my list) how exactly you used a dictionary to make the wordlist for your
Greek study that you mentioned above.
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Iversen
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 Message 3110 of 3959
26 November 2012 at 10:58am | IP Logged 
methinks "cuatre"

FR: Et puis il faut choisir une langue... Etant donné que mahasiswa vit à Montréal (prononcée /MONG REAL/, pas /Mon tReeaaaawl/ ye Anglophones!) je vais choisir le français.

Sur les listes de mots:

Quand j'ai formulé mes premières idées sur les listes de mots en 2007 j'ai vite vu qu'il faudrait trois colonnes dans l'ordre 2. 1. et 2. langue, et que le nombre de mots dans chaque bloc devait être entre 5 et 7. Mais j'ai vacillé sur la question de
colonnes de répétion. Quand on fait la première répétition on devrait déjà connaître les mots, et sinon on va les voir encore une fois quand on revois le premières colonnes. Donc il devrait être assez avec deux colonnes: 2. et 1. langue. Vu que j'avais moi-même une tendence à oublier de faire mes répétitions (sans quoi toute la méthode serait inéfficace) j'ai commencé à réserver 40% à la droite sur chaque page pour les colonnes de répétition. Les répétitions après la deuxième n'ont pas besoin d'un format spécial - souvent c'est assez de relire la liste, et s'il y a toujours des doutes çà et là on peut la copier à la main, avec une traduction pour les mots problématiques..

Ceci c'est toujours le format que j'emploie pour celles de mes listes qui sont basées sur un dictionaire, mais peu à peu je suis venu à la conclusion que c'est faux pour le listes basées sur des textes, du moins si on a gardé le texte plus les mots nouveaux qu'on a noté. Si je fais des études intensives d'un quelconque texte je fais une copie à la main, et je réserve une colonne à la droite sur le papier pour les mots nouveaux et parfois des expressions idiomatiques - mais seulement celles qui sont assez brèves. Mais évidemment l'inventaire de mots peut déjà être considéré comme une liste de mots, et par conséquent la liste avec trois colonnes n'est pas la première liste dans ce jeu, mais bien la seconde, et pour faire une ronde de répétition il serait plus logique de revenir au texte (l'original ou la copie) et contrôler qu'on peut dès maintenant tout lire sans problèmes. Si oui, on a évidemment appris les mots dedans, et sinon, on peut répéter précisement les mots qui posent des problèmes.

Avec un dictionaire il en est autrement. Là il n'y a pas de tour précédent, et les colonnes de répétition sont essentielles - sine qua non, comme on dit. Mais comment éviter de s'endormir?

Eh bien, d'abord les listes basés sur un dictionaire sont plutôt pour ceux qui déjà connaissent bien des mots. Il faut être capable de forger des associations à quelque chose qu'on connait déjà, et quoiqu'on peut utilisé pour ceci des mots d'autres langues (par example sa language maternelle) il est meilleur de trouver des associations dedans la language cible parce que on arrive ainsi à voir cette langue non comme un amas de mots isolés, mais comme un réseau entrelacé.

Deuxièmement, il ne faut pas se sentir obligé à apprendre tous le mots sur chaque page. Prenez le mots qui sont interessants, que vous avez a vu quelque part ou qui pourraient ête utiles. Parfois ces mots ne sont pas tellement fréquents, mais personellement j'aime bien avoir un stock de mots rares et précieux pour des occasions particulières. Or, il faut se rendre compte que les mots choisis par hasard dans un dictionaire rarement sont entre les mots plus fréquents que tout le monde doit apprendre - mais pour cela il y a les listes qu'on a produit à la base de textes authentiques. Si un mot est assez fréquent on va le trouver là, sinon ce n'est pas assez fréquent pour être indispensable.

Troisièment, on doit être à l'aise. Si on aime avoir un peu de musique pour occuper les parties non-verbales du cerveau, alors faites-en. Moi je regarde souvent la télé quand je fais mes listes. Si on travaille trop durement avec quelque chose on sera vite fatigué, Ce qui d'ailleurs est une des raisons pour lesquelles je dis qu'il faut faire des copies à la main et noter les mots nouveaux sur la même page. Au moment où on a noté quelque chose on a élimine la contrainte de garder tout dans sa memoire, et on peut se détendre. Celui qui s'endort est celui qui s'est épuisé psychologiquement, tandis que celui qui a gardé ses forces restera alerte.
   
Those who had problems reading this are kindly referred to my Guide to learning Languages, part 4.

Edited by Iversen on 26 November 2012 at 4:09pm

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Iversen
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 Message 3111 of 3959
26 November 2012 at 1:14pm | IP Logged 
It just occurred to me that there is a minimal Southern Jutish dictionary here (or maybe just a wordlist - is there a bottom limit?). And the homepage and magazine of Æ Synnejysk Forening ('Den Sønderjyske forening') is also written in the local dialect. Their magazine 'æ blaj' ('Bladet') in particular is worth studying - it is found at the homepage under "Æ historie o æ sproch" in the menu.

In those few cases where I have tried to write in Synnejysk I have first read and copied some texts from that excellent homepage. But I can 'hear' it whenever I try because I know people who speak that dialect.

It is a pity that several other regional associations here in Denmark have homepages and club magazines in boring Standard Danish - one sorely missed chance to do something for our dialects!

On the homepage of the Synnejysk forening there is access to their magazine ("Æ Blaj"), which is written entirely in the local dialect, and I would like once again to show an example of it here at HTLAL with a wee hyperliteral translation into standard boring Danish and English:

Synnejysk:
Å æ generalfåsamling snakket vi å om, at æ kontingent sku stich æ lidt, da æ porto jo æ stechen. Di flest a æ arransjemange gie unneskoj, mæn hælle de end å sæt æ pris op. Dæ vå it dæn heel stoe modstand moe å fåhøj æ kontingent fra 150 te 200 kr. pr. husstand å fra 100 te 150 kr. få jæn.

Rigsdansk:
På generalforsamlingen snakkede vi om, at kontingentet skulle stige [..] lidt, da portoen jo er steget. De fleste af arrangementerne giver underskud, men hellere det end at sætte prisen op. Der var ikke den helt store modstand mod at forhøje kontingentet fra 150 to 200 kr pr. husstand og fra 100 til 150 kr. for én

Egnlsih:
On the generalassembly talked we about, that the membershipfee should rise [..] alittlebit, as the postage yeah is rised. The most of the arrangements give deficit, but rather that than to put the price up. There was not the whol(ly) big resistance against to raise the membershipfee from 20 to 26 € for a household and from 14 to 20 € for one.

Please notice that there isn't any enclitic definite article in Synnejysk, unlike Rigsdansk: "æ" is the article (except when it does service as the copula verb 'to be' in the present tense or as the weird and mysterious last "æ" in the first sentence).

Edited by Iversen on 26 November 2012 at 3:54pm

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Iversen
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 Message 3112 of 3959
29 November 2012 at 1:24am | IP Logged 
I would have written something about an article I have read about the Silk Route in Russian, but it will have to wait. Instead I'll waste a few words on today's studies of old languages - cf. the thread "Engelsk er et skandinavisk språk" and its companion in English. The relevant thing here is not whether Modern English is a more or less direct descendant of Old English - or whether it has more Old Norse in it than Old English, as claimed by two linguists. The relevant thing is that I totally had forgotten that I own a couple of small introductions to Old English and Old High German, resp. "Altenglisches Elementarbuch" by M.Lehnert and "Althochdeutsches Elementarbuch" byNaumann and Betz, both from Walter Gruyter (1965 and 1967). They spend a lot of pages on phonology and sound shifts, but there are also morphological sections and genuine quotes with translations. So now I have to read those booklets to see how much rubbish I have written here.





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