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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log Post Reply
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hribecek
Triglot
Senior Member
Czech Republic
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1243 posts - 1458 votes 
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Studies: Italian, Polish, Slovak, Hungarian, Toki Pona, Russian

 
 Message 3281 of 3959
27 May 2013 at 7:58pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:


However I have to correct one detail: I use handwritten wordlists instead of Anki and other SRS-systems.

Yes, of course you're right, but I've always considered word lists as the same category as SRS. Anyway, I also use word lists and combine them as part of my flashcard system and I'm glad to know that it can work for a successful polyglot like yourself.
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Sterogyl
Diglot
Senior Member
Germany
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152 posts - 263 votes 
Studies: German*, French, EnglishC2
Studies: Japanese, Norwegian

 
 Message 3282 of 3959
28 May 2013 at 8:02am | IP Logged 
Hello Iversen,

How many times do you repeat your word lists? Twice and then hop, à la poubelle? Or do you store them and repeat them from time to time?
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Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 4835 days ago

9078 posts - 16470 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
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 Message 3283 of 3959
28 May 2013 at 9:40am | IP Logged 
I make one repetition round, normally one day after the first three columns have been written. But there are exceptions. I have recently made a run through the Greek alphabet during my holiday in Cuba in January (finished a few weeks after), and then I have done a similar marathon through the Russian alphabet during my trip this month between Venice and Budapest, and I finished it just before Budaest (where I hardly used my limit4ed active Russian). With such general perousals the goal is to get a brushup on the whole vocabulary of a language, and the extent will be around 4-5000 words. It would break my neck to do repetition rounds here, but every Russian or Greek wordlist I make from now on will be a repetition in itself.

The normal procedure with wordlists based on dictionaries is to reserve 2x2 columns on the same sheet for repetitions, and those should - as I said - be done one day after the first round. If they are done the same day you haven't forgotten the words well enough (notice the irony, but I mean it), and if it takes too long you could just as well find some other words to study.

With wordlists based on manual textcopies I can do the same thing, but I have come to favour anther method: I go back to the original textcopy with its annotations in the right margen. Now I should be able to read the text and understand everything, and I can check with the annotations whether I have learned the words that gave me trouble in the first place. I can't say whether this is as efficient as a 'normal' repetition, but it helps my reading skills which the column based method doesn't.

I don't throw the finished wordlists away right away. I put them into a heap, and then I throw them away later, but in the meantime I may have a peek at some old wordlists to get my memory refreshed. However this isn't a regular part of my routine - after the first couple of days I like to look at some other words, and then my regular extensive reading will be responsible for keeping my passive vocabulary in shape.   

The wordlist method in itself has some inbuilt repetitions: one from the original source to column 1 (in the foreign language), and then two within a few minutes. And then there is the repetition round one day later as described above. There may be a third and even fourth round , but they are not obligatory and mostly rather cursory.

In contrast the SRS methods have potentially an unlimited number of repetitions of each word, spaced over maybe several months. However each repetition is done as a control question without previous exposure. Whether this is more effcicient than control shortly after an exposure is a moot point, but it is certainly more difficult. I could see a point in combining the two methods. The wordlist method is like a short intensive course, but hasn't got a longterm component. The SRS methods haven't got a short time component, but they make sure that your words don't disappear below the event horizon into a black hole (although they may still be forgotten once you have 'proved' that you know them because then the inquisitive questioning stops).

In practice I accept that words learnt through wordlists have to live as they best can after the two, maybe three rounds. If I see them often enough in my general reading (or hear them in my more limited oral exposure) then they will survive, and any casual exposure will serve as a reminder. If I never see them again then the harm done probably is fairly limited.

And this rant might qualify for an item in my Guide to learning language so thanks to Sterogyl for bringing the question up.

Edited by Iversen on 29 May 2013 at 9:19am

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Kronos
Diglot
Senior Member
Germany
Joined 3393 days ago

186 posts - 452 votes 
Speaks: German*, English

 
 Message 3284 of 3959
28 May 2013 at 2:28pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
GE: Fasulye hat mir nach meiner Eindrücke aus dem Polyglottenkonferenz in Budapest Polyglot gefragt. Ich habe tatsächlich erwogen ein Video für Youtube darüber zu machen, aber ich möchte wennmöglich in der Lage sein, mit einer Aufnahme vor der Aufnahme zu konferieren. Und es wird gemunkelt, daß dies noch einen Monat dauern kann.

I would be glad if you made a new video. After one gets used to familiar faces on youtube, it feels like something is missing when some posters all but stop putting out videos at some point.

People like Emanuele Marini and the enigmatic Ioannis Ikonomou are beyond me. Just entering middle age, they already have a thorough working knowledge of all official languages of the EU, and know plenty of others in addition. No doubt they are immensely profited by languages being their daily profession - they have the chance to practice what they learn.

Maybe it's not so enigmatic though. I got the impression that many historic polyglots had a linguistic background, being able to pick up the grammar of a language rather quickly, and once having completed the necessary basics of a language they like to take up the next one at once, about every six months or so. In the course of years and decades this turns into an avalanche. They also started early.

Edited by Kronos on 28 May 2013 at 2:30pm

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Iversen
Super Polyglot
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Denmark
berejst.dk
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 Message 3285 of 3959
28 May 2013 at 4:17pm | IP Logged 
Well, I got fed up with making videos when a series of Youtube videos where I presented my paintings in a series of relevant languages had extremely few visitors. Apparently people only watched my videos on Youtube because they had read my writings here at HTLAL, and my reasoning was that they could just as well just continue to read those writings there. On top of that there are some practical problems. I have a flat where my neighbour sometimes made so much noise that I couldn't make videos at home. I then made a number of videos at my job after working hours - but at that time I'm more interested in getting home than in making videos. He has become somewhat less noisy, so maybe I could try to make things at home again now, but always with the risk that I have to stop in the middle of a recording.

However I enjoy watching the videos of others, so maybe it is somewhat selfish not to to contribute anything in this sphere - I'll think it over.

One of the latest videos I have watched it the one with the Italian Emanuele Marini from Budapest and the one about him from Italian TV. I am impressed with the breadth of his skills (wider than mine), but I don't feel that "people like Emanuele Marini and the enigmatic Ioannis Ikonomou are beyond me". Given that I hear very little in most of my languages and almost never speak them at home it is also logical that there are people out there who can speak their languages better than I can, and maybe more of them. But we are moving ahead on the same track - they don't have a VIP track for themselves, and once I have conquered a couple of bottlenecks I may also reach at least something in the order of twenty spoken languages.

I would also like to call this review in French by Fabien Snauwaert to your attention. It gives almost a complete summary of the speeches at the event, including several details I had forgotten.

Fasulye draws the attention to the skill in switching languages as something polyglots can do with greater ease than others - and almost by definition between more languages. This is in my opinion to a large extent a trainable skill, but as always some can do it with less training than others. I remember that we once discussed this somewhere in my log, and Fasulye was not quite happy with my wish to have truly kaleidoscopic conversations where you constantly switch languages and maybe even answer different persons in different languages - almost like the interview with Marini in Budapest. She preferred longer periods with each language in her Skype sessions, which may be better for language learning, but can't be anywhere as exhilarating as getting the chance to use maybe ten languages within a few minuts. Unfortunately it is extremely rare that such occasions occur in my life - although polyglot conferences might be the one place where you can experience them. So I hope there will be more of them, and that chaos will reign at least marginally.


Edited by Iversen on 28 May 2013 at 4:36pm

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tarvos
Super Polyglot
Winner TAC 2012
Senior Member
China
likeapolyglot.wordpr
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 Message 3286 of 3959
28 May 2013 at 4:35pm | IP Logged 
Ah, es freut mich zu hören, dass du noch nachschauen wirst, ob du einige Videos machen
und herunterladen kannst; ich habe mich immer darauf gefreut, mich deine vorherige
Videos anzuschauen. Ich werde kein Plädoyer halten hier, damit ich keiner erpressen
will, aber ich hatte immer Spaß.

Ich habe mich auch die Videos über deine Gemälde angeschaut, obwohl ich das Material
über das Sprachen lernen mehr interessant fand und deswegen auch mehr Zeit damit
durchgebracht habe.

Ich glaube auch, falls du in der Lage bist, deine Möglichkeiten zur Gespräche ein wenig
zu entwickeln, dass ein Anzahl von 20 Sprachen auch nicht unrealistisch ist. Selbst
möchte ich ebenso gerne ein solches Anzahl erreichen, aber ich habe im Gegenwart noch
30 Jahren im Hinaus, um mein Ziel zu erreichen (wozu auch einige Asiatische Sprachen
wie Chinesisch und Tagalog gehören).
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Sterogyl
Diglot
Senior Member
Germany
Joined 2499 days ago

152 posts - 263 votes 
Studies: German*, French, EnglishC2
Studies: Japanese, Norwegian

 
 Message 3287 of 3959
28 May 2013 at 5:08pm | IP Logged 
Hallo Iversen

thank you for your extensive response. The reason I asked is that I'm kind of fed up with Anki and I'm looking for alternatives. I recently started learning Dutch and I want to do it without using Anki or any kind of SRS/flashcard system at all. Your wordlist method seems to be less stressful than the flashcards who pitilessly appear out of nothing and want to be answered and graded. It's getting on my nerves... What is the point in learning every single word in a language anyway? From now on I will allow myself to forget words that are not important. For my two advanced languages I will discontinue using anki and implement more extensive reading/TV, some writing more or so.
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Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 4835 days ago

9078 posts - 16470 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
Personal Language Map

 
 Message 3288 of 3959
30 May 2013 at 2:16pm | IP Logged 
I have made a Youtube video with some of my impressions from the Budapest polyglot conference. You can see it here - it lasts 20 minutes, but should maybe have lasted 30 'for your comfort'. First I give my reaction to Splog's distinction between polyglots and polynots, then I comment on the speeches which referred to small languages, from that I proceed to a discussion about idiomatic expressions, followed by some remarks about translation/interpretation, and I end up saying thanks to Torbyrne and Poliglotta80 plus a number of less famous Hungarians for arranging this conference.

Next year there will probably be something in Montreal and New York, maybe also Berlin, and I will try to attend at least a couple of them. I can see that there already has been talk about providing something like seminars or even lectures in other languages in English. Of course the majority of the common activity will be in English because that language has become our only shared communication vehicle. But I personally wouldn't mind having a speech in Chinese (with or without translations .. or why not a running summary on the screen?) - I would just see it as an opportunity to have some multilingual interaction outside the lecture hall. I would also like to have some true linguistical chaos at the fringes of the conference, of the kind displayed in the video with Luca and Emanuele Marini on Youtube. But let's see what happens when the complete recording of the event is released - then maybe we'll get a new round of reviews and comments with ideas for future conferences.

Edited by Iversen on 30 May 2013 at 2:25pm



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