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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6700 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes  Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 2881 of 3959 27 March 2012 at 4:31pm | IP Logged | ||
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Let's try a bit of Dutch. I took a Dutch sentence from a Zoo-page and put it into Acapela Box - another fine speech synthesizer which contrary to Abair offers several voices* for most languages - which gives you the opportunity to explore the variations within those languages:
* I wonder how they got Queen Elisabeth to speak her parts! U kunt tegenwoordig een combi-kaart voor Burgers' Zoo en het Nederlands Openluchtmuseum kopen /e könt teχəvo·Rdeχ e·n kɔmbikαRRt fo·R BöRhɔrs so· æn ət ne·dɔlansə-öpənleχtmyseåm kåubə / /y könt teχəvo·RRdeχ e·n kɔmbikαRRt fo·R BöRgɔs so· æn-ət ne·dɔla·Rns opɔlöχtmyseöm ko·pə / /y könt teχəvo·Rdeχ en kɔmbikαRt fo·R BøRgɔs so· æn (h)ət ne·dɔlansə opɔ(R)löRχtmyzæöm kåbə/ /y könt teχəvɔ·Rdeχ e·n kɔmbikαRRt fo·R BøRχɔRs so· æn ət ne·dɔla(R)ns opɔ(R)löRχtmyzæjöm kåupə/ PS: I use R here to indicate the backtongue r of Dutch - RR if there is even the slightest tendency to roll. I use /α/ (alpha) to indicate an open a before R and /a/ for the closed one before n - but maybe it would be better to switch these two because /a/ is the one with an opening in the written sign. I vaguely remember having done something like this during my study time long ago, but with prescribed signs - this time I'm just trying to find out how to write something which I as a Dane with a certain past automatically will 'hear' as something close to the real McCoy. At this point it should also be stressed that this is a speech synthesizer based on sampled sounds and not naturally flowing speech. However I have some time ago done a special study of Dutch diphtongs, where I noted down variations in the pronunciations of ui, ei etc. in podcasts from Dutch Zoos, and I also found enormous differences in that experiment (where I didn't go into extreme details as I have done here). Edited by Iversen on 27 March 2012 at 5:01pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6700 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 2882 of 3959 28 March 2012 at 5:18pm | IP Logged | ||
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IC: Ég vildi að hlusta á eitthvað á íslensku og ð leitaði í Youtube fyrir eitthvað. Svo sló ég inn "Eyjarfjördurjökull", en aðeins fengið eg orðminna hreyfimyndir. Í stað þess leitaði ég á nafnið "Reykjavíkur" og fann hér þenna myndskeið með skriftlegt eftirrit - sem þó reyndist ekki vera nákvæm eftirlíking:
Framboðsfundir á Vestfjörðum voru frægir fyrir hörð skoðaskipti og fjörugar umræður, þar sem ýmislegt var látið flakka... Eg heyrði þó þetta: Framboðsfundir á Vestfjörðum voru frægir fyrir hörð(u) skoð(unnar)skipti og þar sem allt var látið flakka Today I wanted to proceed from Dutch to Icelandic, but the only available speech synthethizer was that of Google translate which sounded like an evil robot in an old science fiction film. OK, next stop Youtube, where I first searched for "Eyjarfjördurjökull" - but the videos about this theme had no speech, just a hissing and rumbling volcano which let out a lot of ash clouds. So I searched for videos about the capital "Reykjavíkur" and found a fine clip which even seemed to have a partial transcript of the first couple of sentences. Well, actually I heard something different, so here you get first the text message, then my guess about what was really said and finally pronunciation and translations as usual. However you only get one sentence today because it is five o'clock and I should be going home now: Framboðsfundir á Vestfjörðum voru frægir fyrir hörð(u) skoð(unnar)skipti og þar sem allt var látið flakka frαmboðsføndör αu væstfjörðym vöru frα(j)ir fyrir hörðu-skåuðunαrskifti αu ðαrsöm αdlti vαr lαutið flak'a Candidate-meetings at WesternFiords were famous for hard view-exchanges and there which all was let roam Candidate meetings at the Western Fiords were famous for hard exchanges of points of view and (being a place) where everything was let loose. Even this tiny specimen demonstrates that the Icelandic orthography isn't to far from the spoken words as it is sometimes claimed - although you have to look at a lot of examples to see that this is a general rule. You also need to know for instance that "ll" is pronounced almost like "dl", and that vowels with an accent actually are different from the same vowels without accent - they are even counted as separate letters in most Icelandic dictionaries. There was also a short stop after "flakk" which I have marked with an apostrophe. But one of the most noteworthy things here is the way the stresses fall at almost equidistant intervals. There are are couple of homepages where you can listen to the bits and bolts of Icelandic in isolation, first and foremost the Icelandic part of forvo.com. It is stated that 114 Icelanders have contributed to the site with 3423 words, and there are 2836 more underway. Excellent initiative - while we wait for something like abair.ie. Edited by Iversen on 28 March 2012 at 5:38pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6700 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 2883 of 3959 29 March 2012 at 11:00am | IP Logged | ||
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This morning somebody had stolen my newspaper so instead I read a printout of Wombat's Irish Grammar Guide in the bus, - something like 16 out of 19 A4 pages. As the name implies it is a useful quick and dirty guide rather than a complete grammar, but with references to places where you can find more information. One larger grammar projekt on the internet is "Gramadach na Gaeilge" by a German named Braesicke (originally written in German, English version here). Another grammar which has been a standard referencework in its paperform for many years is the "GRAIMÉAR GAEILGE na mBRÁITHRE CRÍOSTAÍ" (a comprehensive grammar written by the brothers Christian), which to my surprise now can be downloaded from this site - however I didn't know this five minutes ago, so I haven't found out which of the two grammars I prefer*. My paper Teach Yourself at home is not only unsystematic, but also irritating because I don't want to be bothered with drills when I'm searching for information. Later this year I'll be visiting Ireland, and maybe I can find something better on paper there.
EDIT: Now I have found out: the Christians' grammar is written in Gaelic and I'm not ready for that yet. I stay with Herrn Braesicke, even though he claims just to be a learner himself. Edited by Iversen on 29 March 2012 at 11:11am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6700 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 2884 of 3959 30 March 2012 at 3:35am | IP Logged | ||
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RU: Я читал на путеводителе языка индонезийский на автобусе с работы домой сегодня. Более того, я видел, викторины на французский канал TV5, и я сделал русскии списки слов, основанные на моих копий книга русской истории, где я достиг того момента, когда Иван IV Грозний прибыл разбить молотком голова кронпринцу. И его единственный оставшийся наследник был слабоумным дураком. Но в остальном, я сделал главным образом неязыковых вопросов на моем компьютере.
I have read in an Indonesian language guide on the way home from my job, and later on I have watched a quiz in the French channel TV5. Besides I have made a long wordlist based on excerpts from my Russian history book which I some time ago have copied/studied intensively. I took it up again recently and got to the point in the book where Ivan the Terrible in a fit of rage smashes the head of the crownprince (his only son) with a club - a thoroughly bad move for someone with dynastical aspirations. The only available heir after that was mentally retarded, and after a brief intermezzo with somebody called Boris Godunov the Romanovs founded a new dynasty. Where Peter I promptly repeated the history by letting his only son be flogged to death - but the two disagreed strongly about the future course of Russia, so Peter had at least a reason for physically eliminating his heir - Ivan IV had just a terrible temper. . Apart from that I have been working on non-linguistic things on my computer most of the evening (and half the night). Edited by Iversen on 30 March 2012 at 11:26am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6700 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 2885 of 3959 30 March 2012 at 2:19pm | IP Logged | ||
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RU: Я нашел случайно список из 500 наиболее распространенных слов на русском языке. Kак правило я не использую частотные списки, когда я запоминаю слова, но в целях контроля являются весьма полезными. К счастью, я знал все слова, но в некоторых случаях, расширить свои знания - например, с этим словом "хозяин", который я знал только как "host", но это также означает 'master, boss'. Настоящим сюрпризом, однако, что есть страница о каждом слове, с примерами, и эти примеры являются общими перевод как дословный перевод. Например "улица":
Example sentences: На у́лице идёт дождь. It's raining outside. literal On street goes rain. Idioms and set expressions: на у́лице = outside literal on a street Related words: у́личный = street (adjective) Proverbs and sayings: Бу́дет и на на́шей у́лице пра́здник. Every dog has his day. literal There will be a holiday on our street too. POR: O meu projeito "ouvir muito lentamente e escrever tudo em termos fonéticos" já atingiu o portugues. Busqueu um texto apropriado na internet e encontrei o siguiente texto de fado, cantado por uma senhora chamada Cristina Branco. Não importa aqui a música, mas colocou as palavras na caixa de Acapela, onde têm a voz de uma brasileira e outra duma senhora europeia. Eu pensei que poderia ser útil ouvir as mesmas palavras em ambas as variantes do Português. Parêntesis indicam sons casi desaparecidos. A grafía /δ/ indica um som talmente macia que quase, mas não completamente seja igual ao 'd macio' do islandês. O /ã/ fica tão aberto como /α/, mas nasalisado - desafortunadamente não posso escrever 'α' com tilde. Nos 'em' /æm/ os 'æ' deveriam tambem notar-se com tilde, mas não é possível: Trago fados nos sentidos BR: /Trαgu fαδush nus-s()ntiδush/ PO: /Trαgu fαδ()u nush-s(æ)ntitsh/ CBr: /tragu fαδu nush sænti·δush/ Tristezas no coração /Tristæ·sas no korαsão/ /Tristæ·zash nu kurαsãu/ /tristæ·sash nu kurαsãu/ Trago meus sonhos perdidos /tragu mæws sɔnjus pærdi·δ(u)sh/ /trag(u) mæws så·njs pərdidjsh/ /tragu mæws sɔnjus pərdiδush/ Em noites de solidão /æm nɔjtjəs de solidão/ /æm nɔjtjsh de solidão/ /æi nɔjtəsh de sulidãu/ Edited by Iversen on 30 March 2012 at 2:56pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6700 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 2886 of 3959 01 April 2012 at 2:07pm | IP Logged | ||
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Yesterday I was away the whole day until the early evening on a oneday ticket to one of the train companies here in Jutland. I did bring along a Russian grammar, but also several newspapers, and because of the trains being fairly full and not very quiet the newspapers won.
Today I have spent about an hour listening to Irish with the help of abair.ie. I am fairly pleased with my own homemade notation which right away gives me the right pronunciation, where it would take a lot of work with IPA or some other third-part system to function at the same almost authomatic level for me. I have noticed several pecularrities, some of which seem to be part of a trend, others maybe not - the big question is whether there are rules which can be formulated in a reasonable consistent way, or whether the speakers can act on a whim. In this case there is only one speaker, so it shouldn't be a question of dialects. For instance I could not have predicted that "Rugadh agus tógadh ar an Srath Bán" (born and raised in Strabane) would be pronounced /rɔgu·_gəsh tɔgur æn Sræbojən/ - especially the long /u·/ at the beginning went against my expectations, but it must be blamed on the combination of -adh and agus. Luckily a speech synthethizer permits you to test such hypotheses, and the suspicion is confirmed: "tógadh agus rugadh" is pronounced /tå·gugəsh rɔgə(d)/ - with an /u/-sound. The "-adh" of "tógadh" in the first example is pronounced midway between /u/ and /ə/ because it is melting together with the following "ar". In contrast "réimse leathan ranganna" ( range wide classes) is pronounced /ræ·mshə l(e)ahan ra·ngana/, i.e. here "-than" in pronounced like /-han/. In most languages (or all?) there are cases where the pronounciation of certain elements differ according to the surroundings, but Irish is particularly prone to that, and you would never discover what actually happens without actually taking your time to listen. Another example: "Theagasc me" (I have taught) is pronounced /hæ·gæs kme/ - notice that the /k/-sound sounds like it has jumped to the following word. An third and final one: "ach caithfidh mé a admháil go .." (but will-have-to me to admit that.. -> but I have to admit that..") which is pronounced "α kαjmæ abwal go..". One possible analysis: 'mh' in pronounced like 'v', and this in turns colours the sound of the preceding d so that it sounds like a /b/ rather than a /d/.. At the end of the day all this is too complicated to calculate from rules alone, but I do expect that having listened closely to and written my observations down for further analysis will make it easier to absorb the correct pronunciation from similar cases in real speech. Good imitators may be able to do all this without conscious analysis, but I have read that at least some professional impersonators do a fair amount of studies of their 'victims' before they go on stage with the result. Edited by Iversen on 01 April 2012 at 2:51pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5053 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 2887 of 3959 01 April 2012 at 2:19pm | IP Logged | ||
than is always pronounced like han. adh like ú is a northern feature. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6700 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 2888 of 3959 01 April 2012 at 2:36pm | IP Logged | ||
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You are right - "leathan" is not a good comparison - or rather: it is not a comparison at all. I had something else in mind with "leathan", but in the meantime I'll just mention that the Northerly lady at abair pronounces "Rugadh tógadh" something like /rɔgy(ð) tɔgy(ð)/ (where the /y/ is somewhat more frontal than the /u/ without quite reaching the German /ü/). And as I already have mentioned the "-adh" of "tógadh" in the first example is pronounced midway between /u/ and /ə/ because it is melting together with the following "ar". You could say that the /a/ of "ar" is gobbled up by the "-adh", but managed to colour the compound before it disappeared.
Btw I am impressed that Марк can keep the different dialects apart - I am still at the stage where I just try to absorb all the information I can get without checking which dialect it represents. Edited by Iversen on 01 April 2012 at 2:59pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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